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Paulssurround's Revised Space Optimisation v1 Simplified, October 2018

Paulssurround

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Well I am now a week down the road since my dealer perfomed a tune dem and then optimisation of my Akubariks.  The initial impressions were that the bass node that had been excited previously has been tamed.  They suggested that I live with the result for a while - they have to come back anyway in a few weeks to install a Rega Wallshelf. 

Since then I have played a variety of music and whilst the midrange is very good, I think the bass is a bit recessed and lost in the mix. The one irritation is that with some music I get a low frequency drum thump reflection from the back wall behind me.  I am hopeful that SO can dial this out, and I would have a go to address it myself, but the dealer used their own laptop and didn't transfer the optimisation file to my mac.  I think the optimisation is getting there, but needs some work. The treble and midrange are good, but the bass is a tad recessed for my tastes - ironic I know when I am complaining about a basso thump!

When they come back, I am going to discuss custom filters with them; I missed most of the optimisation so ended up with what they thought worked and I think they only dealt with the system generated results.

If every you return to Northern Ireland Paul, you would be more than welcome to work your magic on my system!
Thank you for the invitation Snug.

There is a friend of mine in Northern Ireland that should be able to get you great results.

It is easy to try a couple of other things:

1) Give a very slight boost to the gain on the subwoofer. Make sure you mark the gain before you make any adjustments so you can go back to the original setting if you have to.

2) Create a new Space profile, saved under a new name, where you add a small amount of bass shelf gain at 50 Hz.  

 
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The Snug

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What a fun evening i have had!  I found the dealer's configuration on my system and have been applying Paul's recommendations from his tutorial to that optimisation. The first low frequency custom filter has been very successful and I can now play June Tabor & the Oyster Band's "My Son David" from the Ragged Kingdom album without the kick drum overpowering the room.  The difference between having SO turned on and off is huge - my wife came into the room when I was trying out the Leonard Cohen track recommendations (she's a fan) and she agreed that the changes were beneficial taking the overblown bass out of the equation.  It is now late and I have an early Tee time in the morning, so I will leave the other three custom filters to tomorrow afternoon.  I still have some way to go, but boy is it promising!!

 
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peter@57m

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image.png

Open Konfig, go to Space Optimisation and click on the three horizontal bars.  One of the options is Create from System.  This allows you to capture the currently in use profile and save it.

 

mbabst

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"Create from system..." is greyed out like in your picture. Can't import the applied SO2 profile. Does it work for you?

 

peter@57m

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"Create from system..." is greyed out like in your picture. Can't import the applied SO2 profile. Does it work for you?
Sorry didn’t note that you were trying to import a SO2 profile into Konfig. Yes as you spotted, I was using a SO2 profile which I cannot import either.

 

Briain

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I think you can't mix SO1 and SO2. 
Hi

Yes, it is entirely possible, but it is a bit of a faff involving lifting the XML format filters from the Konfig log file then pasting them into an XML editor (or opening them via MS Edge*) then pasting the 'fixed' layout into the appropriate section of a previously exported file from SO version 1 (I used Notepad++ for that). As I am using a rear sub (and subs are not yet on the SO2 system) I did all that quite a few times (I've just looked and there are about 90 in my recycle bin)! Also note the red paragraph later in this post; doing it is not without risk, so great care must be taken, too (which is why I didn't write instructions  back in the days of the Linn forum, but they have since been written-up by others, so this cat is already out of the bag, as they say).

Another 'problem' is that the new SO does not identify what each mode type that the filter (the dip) is actually there to address (i.e. 1-0-0 being the first length mode, 0-3-0 being the third width mode, etc) and instead, it just allocates arbitrary (well, actually sequential, but otherwise completely meaningless) numbers to them (e.g. 0-0-0, 1-1-1, 2-2-2, 3-3-3, etc) so I had to work out what each one was (by both looking at the existing SO 1 filter locations and by using amroc) and change these filter identities within the XML code. They can be left as they are, but if your speakers are not spaced equally from each of the side walls, you could have filters (dips) that are needed only for one channel. What that means - for example - is that your first pair of left+right dips might be L1 in both channels (which is fine, you could adjust them as a pair) but if there was no W1 right requirement, your second pair could be W1 on the left, paired with L2 on the right, for example (so if you adjust one of them in Konfig, it will change the other one too).

To describe the above paragraph in a more 'humanly readable' way ('paragraph -hr' for us Linux users :D ) I had to sort out all the filter identities in order that the below shown list...

SOv2orig.png

...instead showed which modes that the dips were there to address (otherwise they were not linked together in each channel and all showed as LWH, as per the above image) and, for example, the single channel one shown currently selected in the below image  (which is actually W2 on front left) would have been linked to an unrelated (in terms of its required level setting) W-H right channel filter.

SOv2.jpg

It is also worth noting that for anybody doing anything like this, it is possible that a typo could result in something very bad happening. When using Konfig, you can't accidentally do something silly like enter a - 20 dB filter as +20 dB, but there are no such sanity checks when hacking the XML code (and goodness knows what your DS would interpret something like a +20 dB inverted dip at 10 KHz as being, for example, and if it did do as it was told, goodness knows how many milliseconds your treble units would survive such an event)!! I do know that Konfig won't import XML with some types of error in the code, but I haven't tested to see whether it would reject importing something silly, like the above.

It would be super-cool if Linn gave the on-line SOv2 a capability of exporting a Konfig compatible file (which would probably be reasonably simple) but they would also have to change SO2 to make it also identify the dips correctly (and I have no idea how complex that would be to do) but my guess is that once Exakt and subs are in the system, future versions of Konfig will no longer include a Space Optimisation feature, so there would be nothing to import them into (unless you remained on the last version of Konfig that does have the SO feature, which is what I intend doing).

Incidentally, for many years I have made it my policy to never bought anything which relies on the presence of a third party server for its configuration or operation, so making an exportable XML file that can be imported to Konfig (and not removing SO v1 Konfig) would be very welcome (but even if not, I hope Konfig never looses the capability to at lease enable/disable SO; I would never upgrade Konfig or my DS to that version).

Bri :)

* I used Edge browser to open the code section extracted from Konfig log file, then copied it from there and pasted it into Notepad++. I was recently informed of a Notepad++ plug-in which would eliminate the need to go through the Edge part of the process, but for security reasons, I am not comfortable with installing a third party package without more information about the author (and I have not yet had time to research that, so I have not yet tried it).

 
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entdgc

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Great post Bri (as always). Is SO2 consistent in the way it orders/numbers filters? i.e. If you make a slight change to your setup and re-run SO2 do you have to go through the process of identifying the filters again?

Dave

 

The Snug

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There is a friend of mine in Northern Ireland that should be able to get you great results. 
Well, Paul made the introduction and this afternoon, Avalon from the Linn Forum arrived on my doorstep.  It didn't take long to work out that we were going to get along very nicely.  Following a chat we started the process by playing a track using firstly the optimisation I had arrived at, then the one my Dealer had created then we reverted back to the basic system generated one.  The challenge Avalon faced was that i had an unusual listening position.  Its a long story, but I had ended up siting close to the left wall while listening.  This resulted in a total of 7 room modes.

After an hour we had made some good progress and the bass was becoming textured and tuneful without overloading the room.  Paul then joined us by Facetime.  We explained where we were and he suggested that we leave the unusual seating position alone and focus on getting the system optimised for a central seating position.  I was pleased about this as it meant I would finally be able to enjoy a correct soundstage and not a compromised one.  So the seating position was changed in Konfig and a recalculation made. This resulted in just 4 room modes. 

It was a pleasure to witness Paul and Avalon work together on the optimisation. It was clear they are good friends with an excellent understanding of the optimisation process and what to do to get the best out of my Akubariks.  Following the optimisation, and adjustments to both toe in and the dressing of the power cable/ethernet cables, the pair had arrived at at a very good result. 

I am greatly endebted to Paul and Avalon for sharing their time and expertise.  I now have a system that sounds wonderful. Gone is the room being overloaded by the music; so to is vocal sibilance/shoutyness. The soundstage is deep and detailed, there is so much separation betwen the musical stands and the bass is so textured deep and tuneful; I am now finding the hairs stand up on the back of my neck as I play favourite tracks and hear them as I have never heard them before. I am so pleased.

I cannot thank Paul and Avalon enough for the magic they have wrought with my system - and Avalon says he can make it even better!!

I am a very happy bear!

 

Paulssurround

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Well, Paul made the introduction and this afternoon, Avalon from the Linn Forum arrived on my doorstep.  It didn't take long to work out that we were going to get along very nicely.  Following a chat we started the process by playing a track using firstly the optimisation I had arrived at, then the one my Dealer had created then we reverted back to the basic system generated one.  The challenge Avalon faced was that i had an unusual listening position.  Its a long story, but I had ended up siting close to the left wall while listening.  This resulted in a total of 7 room modes.

After an hour we had made some good progress and the bass was becoming textured and tuneful without overloading the room.  Paul then joined us by Facetime.  We explained where we were and he suggested that we leave the unusual seating position alone and focus on getting the system optimised for a central seating position.  I was pleased about this as it meant I would finally be able to enjoy a correct soundstage and not a compromised one.  So the seating position was changed in Konfig and a recalculation made. This resulted in just 4 room modes. 

It was a pleasure to witness Paul and Avalon work together on the optimisation. It was clear they are good friends with an excellent understanding of the optimisation process and what to do to get the best out of my Akubariks.  Following the optimisation, and adjustments to both toe in and the dressing of the power cable/ethernet cables, the pair had arrived at at a very good result. 

I am greatly endebted to Paul and Avalon for sharing their time and expertise.  I now have a system that sounds wonderful. Gone is the room being overloaded by the music; so to is vocal sibilance/shoutyness. The soundstage is deep and detailed, there is so much separation betwen the musical stands and the bass is so textured deep and tuneful; I am now finding the hairs stand up on the back of my neck as I play favourite tracks and hear them as I have never heard them before. I am so pleased.

I cannot thank Paul and Avalon enough for the magic they have wrought with my system - and Avalon says he can make it even better!!

I am a very happy bear!
Thank you very much Snug for your wonderful review.

It was great to meet you, although by video, and work with Avalon, towards getting a better result for your Katalyst Akubariks.

I have done a number of remote Space Optimisation setups, and always am surprised that I can hear the improvements in sound quality at my end through my computer speakers in Vancouver, as we make progress with the adjustments.

Enjoy the music, and hopefully I visit Ireland again in the future to meet you in person.  

 

Briain

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Great post Bri (as always). Is SO2 consistent in the way it orders/numbers filters? i.e. If you make a slight change to your setup and re-run SO2 do you have to go through the process of identifying the filters again?

Dave
Hi Dave

Sorry for the delay in responding and yes, any change that requires manipulation of SO v 2 (e.g. even just changing a slider in SO v2 and thus having to re-calculate) requires you to go through the entire process (as in extracting the filters from the DS via Konfig, pasting them into a SO v1 saved profile and sorting them all out to disambiguate them) but once you've done enough of them, your productivity increases to the extent that it isn't really that much of a hassle. If you multiply all of the SO v2 profiles - each with different slider positions - by the number of room design iterations that I've done, it adds up to quite a lot. :)

But...

Moving beyond what I've described doing in the above paragraph, with there being no subs [yet] on the SO v 2 system (and me having a rear corner sub, so effectively I have 3 'subs' in the room) some of the length related filters were too severe and the width related ones were too shallow (in fact, one was not even included) so my next trick was to use SO v 2 to do all the basic hard work (calculating the filter frequencies and their required Q (widths)), firstly for listening position, then again for various different listening positions (e.g. closer to a position where a width mode would be exacerbated, thus it generating the required filter to address it) then I created a hybrid filter set from all these SO v2 profiles (and dumped them into an SO v1 profile) and used REW (and ears) to individually 'massage' each filter (mostly in terms of level, but some also required minor frequency tweaks). This seems to have worked very well indeed, but it did take a considerable amount of time (and so it effectively means that I am no longer using the SO v2 'interface', but I have used the SO v2's back end 'number cruncher' to calculate the basic filters).

I am looking forward to subs being added to SO v2 as not only will it be fascinating to see what it spits out for the 350 + 345 system (and thus see how it compares to what I have done; one would like to hope it will be even better, but only time will tell) but I have a system in my bedroom (212s with blocked ports and a Sizmik sub) and I am really looking forward to hearing what it does to that system (I just used SO v1 and some minor tweaking to do that system and it sounds fine, so I have no plans to touch it until SO v2 has the subs feature added). Of course, when subs do appear, I will still have to extract all the filters and build up an SO v1 profile with the SO v2 filters as I use a bass shelf with that system (50 Hz at 1.1 dB, as shown in Konfig) to better integrate the sub (which now runs 1 dB lower than it did before I added that shelf) and there is no option to add a bass shelf in S0 v2.

incidentally, on that last point I have often wondered why Linn didn't include a bass shelf feature in SO v2, right from the outset; I consider that as being an essential feature and it seems very strange that it isn't yet in there. Many of Linn's active speakers extend further down in frequency (compared to their passive equivalent model) due to Linn effectively adding a 'bass shelf' into the active crossover cards, so that means the bass shelf in Konfig - when equipped with suitable values - can be used mimic what the active cards did and thus extend the response of passive speakers (I tried that with 212s - with no sub and without their ports being blocked - and it made an awesome difference to their sound; that's what gave me the idea to also try using a shelf to better integrate the sub and that also worked really well).

Anyhow, enough of all this typing business as it's now time to go and grind some coffee (it's only 08:30, so it's maybe slightly too early for the day's first gin and tonic, I suppose)! :p

Briain

 
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Heiko

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Dear Paul,

going back to the very beginning of this thread, in your instructions you give advise about the „Calculated Room Mode 1“ directly related to the speakers, so e.g. for Majik 109’s 28.54 Hz as a starting point.

I assume, when having a sub (in my case a Majik 126) in the system, you would lower the starting point frequency for about 2 - 3 Hz (as you did it to the 242’s vs. 242’s with the Sizmiks or the Akudorik).

Is this also your understanding or do you have even more precise experience as a starting point reg. the Calculated Room Mode for my configuration (109’s + 126, source is a MDSM/1)?

Thanks in advance, best regards,

Heiko

 

Paulssurround

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Dear Paul,

going back to the very beginning of this thread, in your instructions you give advise about the „Calculated Room Mode 1“ directly related to the speakers, so e.g. for Majik 109’s 28.54 Hz as a starting point.

I assume, when having a sub (in my case a Majik 126) in the system, you would lower the starting point frequency for about 2 - 3 Hz (as you did it to the 242’s vs. 242’s with the Sizmiks or the Akudorik).

Is this also your understanding or do you have even more precise experience as a starting point reg. the Calculated Room Mode for my configuration (109’s + 126, source is a MDSM/1)?

Thanks in advance, best regards,

Heiko
Hello Heiko,

Yes, you are correct.

If someone has added a sub to their speakers, I would use a lower frequency for my custom filter 1.

I don’t have a starting frequency for a 109 and Sizmik combination, but would guess it is around 24 Hz.

Take care

Paul

 
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Jail4CEOs2

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Ok, I'm going to try this, and put the whole thing up as the process unfolds. All and any please throw in. MDSM/2> Majik Exaktbox-i> Ninkas. 

I did a proper tunedem and have clicked apply to SPACE. Maybe the first question I came upon was how can I share the complete info from space here to the WAM? Screenshots? Here is the SPACE data.

My results are what many others had. A couple of hours tunedeming without SPACE showed me what the system and room sounded like. After enabling SPACE a great deal of detail emerged, but bass was lost. Today I had a longer listen venturing far outside the list of Paul's test tracks and I found the sound clinical and unmusical, sometimes harsh in the upper registers. 

When I look at Paul's first post here, there are no Ninkas listed. Has anyone created a custom lowest filter?

My first room mode is at 25.71, -28.8 left, -19.12 right. I trimmed it by 16dB. That seemed to add a bit of bass, and did start to add a bit to the vocals in a good way. Paul mentions Diana's piano pedal should disappear. On the first minute of the song it's so prominent, I can't imagine it could be eliminated. Should it be later in the track it starts to be less noticeable?

I zeroed out the mode at 53.79Hz, and that did add musicality back.

I'm not going to go farther than this. I'll wait for some feedback and ideas on these initial two tweaks, as well as listening and seeing how it's working.

 
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Paulssurround

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Ok, I'm going to try this, and put the whole thing up as the process unfolds. All and any please throw in. MDSM/2> Majik Exaktbox-i> Ninkas. 

I did a proper tunedem and have clicked apply to SPACE. Maybe the first question I came upon was how can I share the complete info from space here to the WAM? Screenshots? Here is the SPACE data.

My results are what many others had. A couple of hours tunedeming without SPACE showed me what the system and room sounded like. After enabling SPACE a great deal of detail emerged, but bass was lost. Today I had a longer listen venturing far outside the list of Paul's test tracks and I found the sound clinical and unmusical, sometimes harsh in the upper registers. 

When I look at Paul's first post here, there are no Ninkas listed. Has anyone created a custom lowest filter?

My first room mode is at 25.71, -28.8 left, -19.12 right. I trimmed it by 16dB. That seemed to add a bit of bass, and did start to add a bit to the vocals in a good way. Paul mentions Diana's piano pedal should disappear. On the first minute of the song it's so prominent, I can't imagine it could be eliminated. Should it be later in the track it starts to be less noticeable?

I zeroed out the mode at 53.79Hz, and that did add musicality back.

I'm not going to go farther than this. I'll wait for some feedback and ideas on these initial two tweaks, as well as listening and seeing how it's working.
Great to see you are giving it a go.

The wonderful thing about Space Optimization is that it has been transformative of every Linn system I have worked on, and has the potential to change great sound to much greater sound quality. SO also allows you to make as many profiles as you want, and save them. Then you can compare the sound quality of the changes you make.

The method that I use is not a half way measure, but sounds best when all the calculated room modes and custom filters are installed as per my posts. This may involve reducing some calculated room modes to zero gain and replacing them with custom filters. The key is that you can focus on very subtle adjustments to gain and some possible moving the frequency of the calculated room modes by up to 2 Hz up or down for the ones that you keep.

Regarding Diana Krall's piano pedal, I am not trying to eliminate the pedal, but reduce the annoying thump sound of the pedal that can be too prominent. This is often achieved by incrementally reducing the gain on custom filter 1.

Trimming your room mode 1 by 16 dB seems to be excessive?

Please remember that adding gain to your room modes from 16 Hz to 80 Hz will increase the bass

Sorry, I was not able to open your zip files.

It may be helpful for me, if you fully type out the room modes and custom filters, or take a picture of your open zip file and post it on here please.   :)

Please show all the Linn calculated room modes, and in addition all the calculated room modes and custom filters you have installed in your final profile.

Thanks

 

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