C20th music - where to start

[Glens of Antrim]

Hello,

Some advice please...

I love classical music, but haven't really listened to any C20th yet, bar some Puccini, Richard Strauss & Carl Orff, all of whom hark back to the classical and romantic period. TBH I'm a bit intimated by the thought of atonality etc. So I was wondering if anyone could give me a pointer on where to start.

Cheers GofA

 

[musicbox]

Problem is that 20th century music fragmented into so many different styles.... but here are 20th century works and composers that would be worth perusing. It might be worth asking this on zerogain.com, there's more classical opinion there.

off the top of the head...

Stravinsky.... Firebird Suite, Petrushka, Rite of Spring

Debussy - La Mer

Sibelius - symphonies 5,6,7, Tapiola

Mahler - syms 7,9 and Das Lied von der Erde

Schoenberg - chamber symphonies.

Janacek - From the House of the Dead, Kata Kabanova, string quartets.

Berg - violin concerto

Ravel - Piano Concerti, Piano Trio

Prokofiev - take your pick - sym 5,6, both violin concerti and piano concerto 3 are my own faves

Shostakovich - sym 5, then 4, 10 and 15, 1st violin concerto

Vaughan Williams - initially seems very conservative but all of his symphonies are very original masterpieces, espec 3,4,5,6 and 8 IMO

Bartok - not a great favourite of mine but Music for strings percussion and celesta, string quartets are worth perusal.

The post WW2 Avant garde movement doesn't do much for me - Boulez, Stockhausen, Carter, Cage etc. But lots of good composers in post/neo-romantic from 1945 onwards - Shostakovich, Britten etc.

 

[Glens of Antrim]

musicbox wrote:

Problem is that 20th century music fragmented into so many different styles.... but here are 20th century works and composers that would be worth perusing. It might be worth asking this on zerogain.com, there's more classical opinion there.

Hi Musicbox

What you say must be true. It's easier to play 'follow the dots' in the other eras.

Love Mahler, but had always considered him a Romantic composer. I've never been able to appreciate Debussy & Ravel, though I love the piano concerto for left hand. Have never been able to get beyond Sibelius' violin concerto, or VW's Lark Ascending. But I must try the Russians.

Thanks for the pointers, GofA

 

[155]

I would give the Violin Concerto by Philip Glass a listen, particularly the 2nd movement, but avoid the Naxos recording available at all costs......

155

 

[Glens of Antrim]

155 wrote:

I would give the Violin Concerto by Philip Glass a listen, particularly the 2nd movement, but avoid the Naxos recording available at all costs......155

Hi 155

Will give Glass a try - a pity that the Naxos version's ropey, they're a good way of dipping the toe into new stuff.

Must admit that I haven't found much modern stuff that I really like yet - but have started alove affair with Verdi

Regards GofA

 

[155]

I have to agree with you too, when I first started listening to what is termed 'classical' I often started off with a Naxosrecording, it can be a great way to listen (relatively) inexpensively to a wide range of music.

The recording I most often listen to of the Glass Violin Concerto is on Deutsche Grammophon, featuringChrisoph Von Dohnanyi andWeiner Philharmoinker (21st Century Classics). If there is a facility to send me a private e-mail I would be happy to send you a copy.

Regards

155

 

[Guest]

I'm mostly listening to film scores as good examples of 20th century classical music. You can buy a John Williams best of CD to take a look. Composers like Glass also compose stuff for films but in my opinion they are not nearly as good as John Williams or Jerry Goldsmith. Of course it's a matter of opinion but if you especially like romantic era composers you should listen to some film music since most of the stuff is 90% romantic + 10% modern. 20th century contemporary composers are not doing stuff which was done earlier. The music is mostly atonal and melody is absent because of that. If you like it, ok. I don't. I was always a fan of theme and variations so film music does it all for me. The only downside is, you have to watch the films as well as to fully appreciate the music because the music will change too fast during the listening according to the scene. But for short intervals like 4-5 minutes, they can be listened as small movements of symphonies.

 

[Glens of Antrim]

Hi iBug & welcome aboard the Wigwam

TBH the C20th experiment taught me that I'm a baroque/classical bod; nevertheless I'm stillwant to learn.

Best wishes, GofA

 

[musicbox]

Its a mistake to think that 20th Century classical music is atonal andlacks tunes. Its only actually a small minority of20th century composers who went down this route, unfortunately they are the ones who got all the attention from sensationalizing media, cultural commentators and critics.

For Every Boulez, Cage,Webern and Stockhausen there are three or four Waltons, Arnold, Vaughan Williams, Hanson, Del Tredici, Diamond,Adams, Prokofiev, Vasks, Tubin, Simpson, Korngold, Hermann, Poulenc, Rodrigo, Frank Martin, Honegger, Holmboe etc etc etc. Seek and ye shall find....

 

[Glens of Antrim]

musicbox wrote:

Its a mistake to think that 20th Century classical music is atonal andlacks tunes... For Every Boulez, Cage,Webern and Stockhausen there are three or four Waltons, Arnold, Vaughan Williams, Hanson, Del Tredici, Diamond,Adams, Prokofiev, Vasks, Tubin, Simpson, Korngold, Hermann, Poulenc, Rodrigo, Frank Martin, Honegger, Holmboe etc etc etc. Seek and ye shall find....

Bar 'The Lark Ascending' - which I have - where's the best place to start listening to VW? Best sets / conductor too pls

GofA

 

[SSM]

Glens of Antrim wrote:

where's the best place to start listening to VW?

an asylum

:minikiev:

Bernard Haitink is a good bet. His patricianly, elder statesman style - while inappropriate for some other composers, seems perfect for VW.

 

[musicbox]

Haitink is good, but Vernon Handley is better, and his complete set of VW symphonies is at bargain/mid price on EMI Eminence, superb recordings with the RLPO.

The best place to start is at the beginning, the Sea Symphony - especially if you like Elgar and big Choral music. One of the best I've heard is on Naxos for £5, Paul Daniel and Bournemouth Symphony. Its a massive flowing inspired setting of Walt Whitman poetry, some absolutely blindingly glorious bits in it.

The best symphonies IMO are 3,5,6 and 8. I don't like 2 (London) or 7 (Antartica), not sure why, I really can't stand them! but at the same time I love 1,3,4,5,6 and 8

3rd (Pastoral - 1923) is on the surface an evocation of English Landscape, but reallya lament for the lost boys of 1914-18.

4th (1935) is grindingly dissonant and bitter, but not atonal, and VW claimed he was trying to write a typical modern symphony after reading a Times article about modern composers. At the first performance he commented that "I didn't like it much but its what I meant."

5th (1943) is the masterpiece....a better world to come after the struggle is finished.

6th (1947) Post-War uncertainty.... violent and relentless in some parts, then serene and beautiful in others. It ends in a chilling, eerie deserted wasteland of a slow movement, likea dead planet.

8th (1956) A real gem, lovely tunes and wonderful orchestration.

I'd just get the Vernon Handley set, and maybe thePaul Daniel Sea Symphony as its so good. Haitink's 3rd and 5thare very good, so is Andre Previn's on RCA from late 1960's. Andrew Davis' 6th with BBC SOon Telarc is excellent.

 

[SSM]

musicbox wrote:

Haitink is good, but Vernon Handley is better, and his complete set of VW symphonies is at bargain/mid price on EMI Eminence, superb recordings with the RLPO.

The downside to the Handley recordings is they were captured on indifferent recording ambiences typical of EMI, which no amount of remastering can resuscitate. Although Haitink's are also on the same dread label, they sound fresher and more substantial and likely to appeal greatly to the audiophile sensibilities of the casual inductee to VW.

You are right though, Handley probably knows VW better than Haitink.

 

[Glens of Antrim]

Handley it is

Let you know what I think.

Thanks, GofA

 

[Logan]

Despite the undeserved Wagnerian reputation I seem to have acquired, I spend almost as much time listening to the Janacek operas as everything else put together. I've belatedly been listening to Constant Lambert and Arthur Bliss for the first time,and have been enjoying their ballet music. Tan Dun of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Drum fame composes interesting and unobjectionable sounds, but whether one starts there is another matter.

I am reminded of an American music forum wherein an operatic neophyte asked where he should start. Someone made a serious case for Wozzeck, and was supported by more than a few regulars. I've never bothered revisiting after that.

But I have acquired a living definition of the word "wanker".

 

[musicbox]

solidstateman wrote:

Bernard Haitink is a good bet. His patricianly, elder statesman style - while inappropriate for some other composers, seems perfect for VW.

The thing is.... that's not what he does in his VW recordings, to my ears anyway..... I know what you mean above about his central repertoire: Bruckner, Strauss, Mahler etc, and his relative restraint in these works is his feature and it produces results.

However, when it comes to Vaughan Williams the restraint is less obvious and its as if he's milking the music - especially the slow bits - to anexaggerated degree, in order to maximise the emotional impact and it issometimes overdoing things.

That said.... I do like his 3rd and 5th where this is most obvious! But Previn or Handley are more natural and less forced, and so are abetter long-term bet.

 

[SSM]

MB, I'm obviously not a VW connoisseur but IME hearing Haitink's take on the symphonies I thought he was beinghis usual self! That's what I admire about him,you can expect a uniform consistency, that "Haitink" sound, from him in whatever repertoire he tackles. As for Vernon Handley, I personally always found him to be a most "unromantic" conductor. Not to my tastes.There is none of the melting charm that Barbirolli (the greatest Pom conductor) brought to the English repertoire.

But then, Barbirolli's got some Italian blood too.:lmao:

ps: "unromantic" does not mean a bad or incompetent conductor

 

[SSM]

Logan wrote:

Despite the undeserved Wagnerian reputation I seem to have acquired, I spend almost as much time listening to the Janacek operas as everything else put together. I've belatedly been listening to Constant Lambert and Arthur Bliss for the first time,and have been enjoying their ballet music. Tan Dun of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Drum fame composes interesting and unobjectionable sounds, but whether one starts there is another matter.I am reminded of an American music forum wherein an operatic neophyte asked where he should start. Someone made a serious case for Wozzeck, and was supported by more than a few regulars. I've never bothered revisiting after that.

But I have acquired a living definition of the word "wanker".

Ah, Janacek..... unexplored territory.

What is the first choice amongst his operas suitable for the first-timer? The Cunning Little Vixen? I am still unsure if sung Czech is a good musical medium...

BTW I don't see why Wozzeck can't be a good starting point for certain opera neophytes. Plus points are: its short and sweet (okay, not that sweet

) which is a good thing for the novice who can't swallow a 250min Wagner or a 140 min Verdi opera. And, it is effectively dramatic and chronologically closer to our modern times than the corset and lace weepies of most 19th century operas. So, why not?

Then again, there are far better alternatives like Humperdinck's Hansel und Gretel.

SS

ps: Tan Dun's score for the "Hero" movie is really good.:^Used to think his CTHD score was better than Hero, but the latter has won over now.

 

[Logan]

solidstateman wrote:

Ah, Janacek..... unexplored territory.

What is the first choice amongst his operas suitable for the first-timer? The Cunning Little Vixen? I am still unsure if sung Czech is a good musical medium...

I'd recommend starting with Jenufa and moving through the operas in chronological order. In that way you hear Janacek develop his unique voice. But the Vixen is somewhat of a throw-back to his lyrical style so it too could serve as a starting point. Make sure you hear the Lucia Popp/Mackerras version.

I'm sure Janacek's ultimate operatic voice derived partly from the very language difficulty that you mention. But then it didn't seem to my ears to bother Dvorak in Rusalka.