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Signs of a Kandid wearing out

Wenge1

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iu

To give an impression the MicroLine is similar/identical to MicroRidge

Linn Kandid docs page says: ""Stylus and cantilever: Slot mounted, 3um x 70um nude line contact diamond in boron cantilever"

So, does this imply that a line contact is not a micro ridge? And if it is not, will a line contact stylus performance slowly deteriorate over time rather than drop of quickly like a micro ridge?
 
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Rille

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That would be exactly my understanding of the matter.

What I also find remarkable is that Lyra systems, like a Titan, also have this black ring around the cantilever, as I have also observed with my Kandids. A Lyra dealer could not tell me what it was.

On my 2nd Kandid, the cantilever was crooked towards the end. This could of course also be wear in the suspension, which @Daveyf has already mentioned. However, this only occurred when I would have replaced the system a short time later anyway after intensive use. I also saw this with two systems from the Lyra dealer that he was still using.

I do not want to badmouth the Lyra brand in any way or spoil it for anyone.
 

Daveyf

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That would be exactly my understanding of the matter.

What I also find remarkable is that Lyra systems, like a Titan, also have this black ring around the cantilever, as I have also observed with my Kandids. A Lyra dealer could not tell me what it was.

On my 2nd Kandid, the cantilever was crooked towards the end. This could of course also be wear in the suspension, which @Daveyf has already mentioned. However, this only occurred when I would have replaced the system a short time later anyway after intensive use. I also saw this with two systems from the Lyra dealer that he was still using.

I do not want to badmouth the Lyra brand in any way or spoil it for anyone.
While not wanting to badmouth Lyra either, I do suspect that they have ongoing QC issues. I have heard many stories of misaligned cantilevers, even experiencing this myself. Luckily, their dealer network stands behind the product, but still….
 

Ben Webster

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You did miss something -actually a few things..
1) Perfect excuse to dump the Urika,..:unsure: and get a real phono stage;)
2)The phono cables from the arm can be connected to the De-Mag.
Ok, thanks for confirming that I didn‘t miss anything 😀.

People with Urika 2 who want use Exakt have no other option.

And yes, I compared Urika 1 with other phono stages and a few of them were very impressive. Bevor replacing the real phono stage (😜) Urika 1 with another real phono stage, I‘ll try Utopik in the Radikal 2.

When will you jump in the real phono stage world and what would you recommend?
 

Wenge1

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That would be exactly my understanding of the matter.

What I also find remarkable is that Lyra systems, like a Titan, also have this black ring around the cantilever, as I have also observed with my Kandids. A Lyra dealer could not tell me what it was.

On my 2nd Kandid, the cantilever was crooked towards the end. This could of course also be wear in the suspension, which @Daveyf has already mentioned. However, this only occurred when I would have replaced the system a short time later anyway after intensive use. I also saw this with two systems from the Lyra dealer that he was still using.

I do not want to badmouth the Lyra brand in any way or spoil it for anyone.

While not wanting to badmouth Lyra either, I do suspect that they have ongoing QC issues. I have heard many stories of misaligned cantilevers, even experiencing this myself. Luckily, their dealer network stands behind the product, but still….

In the interest of balance - I have not had this issue with a previous Lyra cart or indeed, my current Lyra cart.
 

akamatsu

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So, does this imply that a line contact is not a micro ridge? And if it is not, will a line contact stylus performance slowly deteriorate over time rather than drop of quickly like a micro ridge?
This is the relevant question to me. Since @ThomasOK made the assertion, perhaps give him a chance to explain or clarify. I tend to not completely trust the information on Linn's website. I've seen mistakes.
 

llatpoh

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So, does this imply that a line contact is not a micro ridge? And if it is not, will a line contact stylus performance slowly deteriorate over time rather than drop of quickly like a micro ridge?
For a definite answer you would first need to define what a line contact is, which may not be as straightforward as it sounds since the term has been used loosely for decades to describe anything resembling Hyper Ellipticals and Fine Lines. As it's been mentioned here before, the original Line Contact patent was filed by Ogura in the late 70s, and subsequently referred to as the Vital profile.

Secondly we would need to define what a MicroRidge is, the original patent was filed by Namiki in the early 80s, but several variants are in production today, from which not all may necessarily show a sudden decrease in SQ when beginning to wear out. The term has also been used sparingly for decades to describe all Van Den Hul derivatives, which doesn't help either.

To add more confusion some people argue that anything not a Point Contact is a Line Contact, so go figure. IMV a definitive answer may not be possible and attempts for a simplified answer likely misleading.
 
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Wenge1

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For a definite answer you would first need to define what a line contact is, which may not be as straightforward as it sounds since the term has been used loosely for decades to describe anything resembling Hyper Ellipticals and Fine Lines. As it's been mentioned here before, the original Line Contact patent was filed by Ogura in the late 70s, and subsequently referred to as the Vital profile.

Secondly we would need to define what a MicroRidge is, the original patent was filed by Namiki in the early 80s, but several variants are in production today, from which not all may necessarily show a sudden decrease in SQ when beginning to wear out. The term has also been used sparingly for decades to describe all Van Den Hul derivatives, which doesn't help either.

To add more confusion some people argue that anything not a Point Contact is a Line Contact, so go figure. IMV a definitive answer may not be possible and attempts for a simplified answer likely misleading.
Way beyond my capabilities I'm afraid. All I know about my stylus is what Lyra say in the carts specification which is:
  • Stylus: Lyra-designed long-footprint variable-radius line-contact nude diamond (block dimensions 0.08w x 0.12d x 0.5h mm, profile dimensions 3um x 70um), slot-mounted
The purpose of original question is that it would be good to know if its performance will ldrop off rapidly as it approaches the end of its useful life or wether the decline will be slower than that,
 

llatpoh

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The purpose of original question is that it would be good to know if its performance will ldrop off rapidly as it approaches the end of its useful life or wether the decline will be slower than that
And that's what I was trying to address, there is no simple answer as I see it. The theory is that as a stylus wear the contact area with the groove walls widens, yielding a gradual (and audible) decrease in SQ. Micro Ridge styluses on the other hand have such a wide groove wall contact area the stylus wear will be more even, negating the gradual increase in distortion in favor of a sudden fallout.

The same sudden collapse in SQ may occur, perhaps to a lesser extent, to Line Contacts too. With all the variants out there this will be a case by case thing and hardly a general rule IMV. I wouldn't worry to much about it though, if your cartridge is properly adjusted (VTF, VTA, Azimuth) record damage is unlikely, styluses become dull as they wear, not sharper, your ears will likely hurt before your records do.
 
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Moomintroll

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I wouldn't worry to much about it though, if your cartridge is properly adjusted (VTF, VTA, Azimuth) record damage is unlikely, styluses become dull as they wear, not sharper, your ears will likely hurt before your records do.
I also came to this conclusion as I was playing LPs last night. All of the discs I played last night had come from Discogs, so had been played on who knows what, before coming to me. Once through the RCM, as necessary, they sound just fine and I can enjoy them, as I assume I’m playing some surfaces that haven’t previously been touched. I can’t imagine that I’ll cause them much further wear, but as my stylus wears, I’ll no longer reach into those areas and will start to hear the historic wear. At that point, new cartridge time.

’troll
 
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ThomasOK

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This is the relevant question to me. Since @ThomasOK made the assertion, perhaps give him a chance to explain or clarify. I tend to not completely trust the information on Linn's website. I've seen mistakes.
If my understanding is correct, the stylus that Lyra uses is not a micro-ridge (or micro-linear) and will have a more gradual change in sound as it wears than a micro-ridge will. We don't sell Lyra here so I don't have one to look at but I have looked at a few under the microscope before and don't recall any of them having a micro-ridge stylus. I can assure you that the Kandid, which is made by Lyra, has a line contact, not a micro-ridge stylus.

The chart that Rille posted gives a good idea of the differences in stylus types. The micro-ridge/microline is unique as you can see. It is that ridge that gives it the different wear characteristic. The Linn Ekstatik and Koil use the micro-ridge type. They are the only two from Linn that I believe have used them. The Kendo is stated as a super fine line stylus.
 

akamatsu

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If my understanding is correct, the stylus that Lyra uses is not a micro-ridge (or micro-linear) and will have a more gradual change in sound as it wears than a micro-ridge will. We don't sell Lyra here so I don't have one to look at but I have looked at a few under the microscope before and don't recall any of them having a micro-ridge stylus. I can assure you that the Kandid, which is made by Lyra, has a line contact, not a micro-ridge stylus.

The chart that Rille posted gives a good idea of the differences in stylus types. The micro-ridge/microline is unique as you can see. It is that ridge that gives it the different wear characteristic. The Linn Ekstatik and Koil use the micro-ridge type. They are the only two from Linn that I believe have used them. The Kendo is stated as a super fine line stylus.
Thank you for this information. I may have assumed something from your quote. I thought you were saying that Kandid is micro-ridge. So it is line contact. So how would stylus wear manifest audibly in a Kandid?
 
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ThomasOK

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llatpoh said:
"I wouldn't worry to much about it though, if your cartridge is properly adjusted (VTF, VTA, Azimuth) record damage is unlikely, styluses become dull as they wear, not sharper, your ears will likely hurt before your records do."

I'm sorry but this is incorrect. I have examined hundreds, if not thousands, of styli under the microscope and the wear pattern can definitely damage your records. As the stylus wears the contact patch, which starts out rounded, develops flat spots. The more it wears the larger the flat spots become. One of the techniques used to measure the amount of wear is to rotate the stylus carrier until the patch of light on the flat spot becomes a thin line and see how many degrees of rotation is needed for that to happen, giving you an idea of how broad the flat spot has gotten. The edges of those flat spots are sharp and when the spot gets quite wide it can and will damage your records. We refer to particularly badly worn styli as VMCDs - Vinyl Munching Chisels of Death! When a stylus reaches that point you are wearing the high frequencies off the record. Done badly enough it can basically engrave the distortion into the groove.

One telltale is when you notice an increase in distorted sibilants in the inner grooves - sung "S" sounds, cymbal hits, etc. The inner grooves are where they are the most difficult to track so you will notice it there first. If those sibilants sound splashy and distorted it is definitely time to get the stylus checked and likely replaced.
 

ThomasOK

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Thank you for this information. I may have assumed something from your quote. I thought you were saying that Kandid is micro-ridge. So it is line contact. So how would stylus wear manifest audibly in a Kandid?
Just as I described above as the telltale for stylus wear. (I had not seen your recent post until after I posted that.) The sonic characteristics of stylus wear are pretty much the same with most different profiles. The big difference between the micro-ridge and any of the others is that most styli wear and exhibit the musical symptoms gradually. Over time they just get worse. With micro-ridge the change is abrupt because you are wearing down a ridge which maintains the same width as it is wearing until you wear it down to the ridge. At that point the tip width increases substantially, to around double the width pretty much all at once, so the musical change is anything but subtle.
 

llatpoh

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llatpoh said:
"I wouldn't worry to much about it though, if your cartridge is properly adjusted (VTF, VTA, Azimuth) record damage is unlikely, styluses become dull as they wear, not sharper, your ears will likely hurt before your records do."

I'm sorry but this is incorrect. I have examined hundreds, if not thousands, of styli under the microscope and the wear pattern can definitely damage your records. As the stylus wears the contact patch, which starts out rounded, develops flat spots. The more it wears the larger the flat spots become. One of the techniques used to measure the amount of wear is to rotate the stylus carrier until the patch of light on the flat spot becomes a thin line and see how many degrees of rotation is needed for that to happen, giving you an idea of how broad the flat spot has gotten. The edges of those flat spots are sharp and when the spot gets quite wide it can and will damage your records. We refer to particularly badly worn styli as VMCDs - Vinyl Munching Chisels of Death! When a stylus reaches that point you are wearing the high frequencies off the record. Done badly enough it can basically engrave the distortion into the groove.

One telltale is when you notice an increase in distorted sibilants in the inner grooves - sung "S" sounds, cymbal hits, etc. The inner grooves are where they are the most difficult to track so you will notice it there first. If those sibilants sound splashy and distorted it is definitely time to get the stylus checked and likely replaced.
There's a context in what I'm saying that you are not taking into consideration, I said with a properly adjusted cartridge, and I should have also said in an audiophile grade system used for critical listening, but I just assumed that part, audible degradation will set in long before record damage. That's the reason (and context) why there's no need to worry much about record wear. Of course if the audible sings of a worn stylus are ignored indefinitely bad things are likely to occur, I'm not denying that.
 
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akamatsu

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Just as I described above as the telltale for stylus wear. (I had not seen your recent post until after I posted that.) The sonic characteristics of stylus wear are pretty much the same with most different profiles. The big difference between the micro-ridge and any of the others is that most styli wear and exhibit the musical symptoms gradually. Over time they just get worse. With micro-ridge the change is abrupt because you are wearing down a ridge which maintains the same width as it is wearing until you wear it down to the ridge. At that point the tip width increases substantially, to around double the width pretty much all at once, so the musical change is anything but subtle.
This is also my understanding of general stylus wear. Sibilants is what I normally would keep an ear out for. I'll pay close mind to the inner section of the groove. The good news is that the Kandid is sounding just fine and appears to have some life left. The bad news is the same as the good news. ;)
 

akamatsu

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There's a context in what I'm saying that you are not taking into consideration, I said with a properly adjusted cartridge, and I should have also said in an audiophile grade system used for critical listening, but I just assumed that part, audible degradation will set in long before record damage. That's the reason (and context) why there's no need to worry much about record wear. Of course if the audible sings of a worn stylus are ignored indefinitely bad things are likely to occur, I'm not denying that.
Thank you. This is reassuring. As expensive as a Kandid is, my record collection is much more valuable.
 
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