Networking Logic - Intro

tuga

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Hi rabskiiii (its the only way spell checker will leave it alone)
My system is absolutely allergic to SMPSs, yet my amps are as fully SMPS’d as it gets and they work brilliantly. It’s not SMPSs per-se, it’s the cheap-as-chips consumer grade, 12 for a 100 bucks supplies that come in/with consumer grade network electronics that sound crap for all the reasons you give and at least ONE MORE. Every power supply in the network contributes its identity to the final sound you hear. Whether that identity comes from a $10 SMPS or a $3000 supply really matters and the difference between one and the other is HUGE….beyond transformational, when the rest of the network allows those differences to get to the end point.
Given how sensitive you or your DAC are to noise in the network, have you tried a network isolator?
 

rabski

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Hmmm...

Power supplies don't have a character, or at least shouldn't have. A power supply needs to give a constant voltage, constant current, or both, depending on what is being powered. The voltage needs to be as clean as possible, in terms of a 'flat' DC waveform, with near to zero ripple. It also should not have any harmonics or overlying higher or lower frequencies. Lastly it should be as low impedance as physically possible.

If all that is achieved, it will make zero difference to the sound regardless of whether it's linear, SMPS or a hamster turning a wheel.
 

Nestor Turton

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There’s noise… and there’s noise!

I much prefer the cleaner sound from my system when avoiding most SMPS. A light hum from the LPS when I have my head 12” away is irrelevant as this is not my listening position for music appreciation.
I get an extremely clean sound without the infuriating buzz - why tolerate intrusive noise if you don’t have to.
 
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JustinTime

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I get an extremely clean sound without the infuriating buzz - why tolerate intrusive noise if you don’t have to.
Because many stock SMPS don’t give a clean sound and the “buzz” doesn’t get anywhere near the threshold of intrusion.
 

rabski

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I get an extremely clean sound without the infuriating buzz - why tolerate intrusive noise if you don’t have to.
A decently designed supply, either linear or switch mode, should never make any mechanical noise. In a linear supply, that's indicative either of some mechanical fault (transformer laminations separating or transformer incorrectly mounted), or it is due to the transformer saturating. This may be the result of excessive DC offset on the mains, or simply the transformer being poorly specced. If the former, then that's an issue that will potentially adversely affect other equipment, but it's easily addressed.

I personally prefer linear, but that's because I build them and have relevant sim software (and a lot more expereince of them). Virtually all my equipment is valves as well, and high voltages are more easily accomplished with linear supplies. I do have an old laboratory 12 volt SMPS that I've used for some things, but there's not really any advantage for me, as it's the size of two house bricks.
 
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tuga

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For anyone interested in actual facts of how clocks in the network chain affect SQ, this technical treatise may help you understand what’s going on.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0...enson_EtherREGEN_white_paper.pdf?v=1583429386
Unfortunately John Swenson never provided the evidence to back up his claims.
Also, a white paper is technical document that describes a technology or product not a 'treatise', and certainly not to be confused with a peer-reviewed research paper. This one looks more like a FAQs sheet.


The following technical note might be of interest:

Analyzing and Managing the Impact of Supply Noise and Clock Jitter on High Speed DAC Phase Noise
Jarrah Bergeron

https://www.analog.com/media/en/ana...lock-jitter-on-high-speed-dac-phase-noise.pdf


I have also attached a research paper on common-mode noise:

The Effects and Reduction of Common-Mode Noise and Electromagnetic Interference in High-Resolution Digital Audio Transmission Systems
Jon D. Paul
 

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  • Paul_Common-mode noise.pdf
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Nestor Turton

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A decently designed supply, either linear or switch mode, should never make any mechanical noise. In a linear supply, that's indicative either of some mechanical fault (transformer laminations separating or transformer incorrectly mounted), or it is due to the transformer saturating. This may be the result of excessive DC offset on the mains, or simply the transformer being poorly specced. If the former, then that's an issue that will potentially adversely affect other equipment, but it's easily addressed.

I personally prefer linear, but that's because I build them and have relevant sim software (and a lot more expereince of them). Virtually all my equipment is valves as well, and high voltages are more easily accomplished with linear supplies. I do have an old laboratory 12 volt SMPS that I've used for some things, but there's not really any advantage for me, as it's the size of two house bricks.
The mains supply to my cottage will not win awards and I'm convinced there is DC offset. I used to have Naim kit, but the buzz ruined my enjoyment of the music. I made numerous attempts to address this with dedicated mains, DC blockers and so on, but to no avail. I did try non-Naim amps, but it was on with the buzzing; although none buzzed quite as loud. My Naim also suffered from radio break through, which was another incentive to move on.

The answer for me was to go for kit that used SMPSs. No more buzz and to my ears music reproduction improved.

To be fair I have heard some fine systems built around Naim kit and the buzz was minimal (hardly audible if at all) and I once got to listen to a system in a neighbour's cottage built around Conrad-Johnson amplification, which didn't buzz at all and was quite superb. I would have thought the neighbour's mains would be no better than mine so perhaps CJ have it cracked.

I'm sure your amplifiers sound superb and had I had one of your designs then I might have avoided the kit changes. My goal is to sit back and listen to the music. I'm happy with my current setup as both Chord and Linn seem to work well for me (though I'm glad I'm not buying anything now after seeing their price increases).

I have heard demonstrations of boutique audiophile switches and music servers and network cables, but heard no improvements. I wonder if those suggesting there are improvements (or in some cases proclaiming it as fact) have listened to a network with fully qualified cabling and HP switches with the edge switches driven by Power over Ethernet. I do not claim it sounds better, but for me it is as good as it gets (Cisco, Juniper and other switches would work well too).
 
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JustinTime

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Interesting. What do you mean by useless?
What about in complement to a switch?
I thought it might be a decent alternative but in my system it was closer to having nothing at all than to having a switch instead. I therefore didn't bother to test it further and sold it on.
 
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JustinTime

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For anyone interested in actual facts of how clocks in the network chain affect SQ, this technical treatise may help you understand what’s going on.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0...enson_EtherREGEN_white_paper.pdf?v=1583429386
These don't appear to constitute actual facts. Swenson is perpetuating the erroneous conflation of jitter in the digital (post-streamer) domain with the same in the ethernet/network/pre-streamer domain.

"
1) Jitter carried through digital data:
We are going to explain how jitter of the clock—e.g., in a network switch—will show up in the data coming out of that switch, even though no separate clock signal is transmitted with the data. And we will explainhow this gets into and affects the DAC-attached endpoint.
The critical part is what happens inside any Ethernet receiver (known as a PHY, physical interface chip). This takes some understanding of how digital circuits work: we have a wire with voltages going up and down that correspond to a digital signal. When the signal voltage goes above or below the threshold voltage of the circuit, it causes the circuit to “change state.” The process of doing this creates a little “burp” of current to flow between the power and ground pins of the circuit. So every time the signal changes, small current
pulses flow through the ground-plane. Remember, the timing of the data changes are controlled by the clock in the switch, so they have the phase-noise characteristic of the clock in the switch. As a result, the pulses happening in the ground-plane also have the same timing characteristics as the clock in the switch".

Perhaps someone who does understand ethernet protocols will be along shortly.
 

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