Musings with Savvy

DomT

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An interesting thread, and I'm glad to see wammers using their ears and comparing what they are hearing with "reality" as Rabski puts it, i.e. live acoustic instruments and voices. I'm a trained and performing musician like Dom and others here, and I can't stress enough how important the tonality of acoustic instruments is to practising musicians who use their instruments every day in orchestras and groups as well as at home.

Take a look and listen to concert pianist Tiffany Chan choosing a Type B Steinway from the Steinway showroom. She spends the whole day choosing the model she is most comfortable with. The video lasts 17 minutes and it gives you a very good idea of the tiny nuances of tone that make or break your relationship with an instrument. Which Steinway is good for Chopin, which is good for playing a concerto and so forth?



So while others get their kicks on Route 66, I get my kicks from equipment that sounds just like real acoustic instruments. The reediness of a clarinet, the shimmer of a Zildjian cymbal, the "ding" of a vibraphone, the unique steely tonality of a Steinway as distinct from a Bechstein or a Bosendorfer. I've played music live for most of my life in everything from symphony orchestras to jazz clubs and the tonalities of acoustic instruments are indelibly imprinted on my brain.

Speaking of Purify amps, I heard one in my system directly compared with my 2a3 amp. It was spooky - it sounded like a fairly persuasive artificial reproduction of music. But it just wasn't real. Extended listening showed a lack of nuance in the tonality of instruments and the decay of notes and voices kind of just "died" as opposed to lingering in the air with the 2a3. It was as if it was trying really hard to sound like the real thing, but there was a glass wall between it and the real thing that it just could never get through at the end of the day. I've tried again and again to set up SMPS power supplies and always failed, and I'm not the only one - they just don't sound like linear power supplies. I have yet to hear anything with the tonality of triode valves and in particular DHTs. But I'm always open and I'm going to build a Pass F7 and play with it, driven with my 10Y line stage. We'll see how that goes when it's built.

I had seen that video and it’s so true that an instrument either speaks to you or it doesn’t both in tone and also in feel.

I watched a video a few years ago about Steinway pianos and the guy who assesses or tunes them, I can’t remember quite who he was, but even from the same model piano he knew the differences between each one.

When I went to buy my bass guitar I assumed that I would buy a Fender Jazz as many of my heros played that bass. But even as a beginner the Musicman spoke to me more. It had a tone that spoke to me more. But hang on I was just a beginner and so what did I know? Well instruments either talk to you or they don’t. I said right order me an Musicman and the guy in the shop said no it might not sound the same buy that specific one. If you like that one buy that one. I find the same with hifi.
 
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Nopiano

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I watched a video a few years ago about Steinway pianos and the guy who assesses or tunes them, I can’t remember quite who he was, but even from the same model piano he knew the differences between each one.
Might have been Ulrich Gerhartz. I’ve seen him at work a few times and it’s amazing.
 
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pmcuk

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When I went to buy my bass guitar I assumed that I would buy a Fender Jazz as many of my heroes played that bass. But even as a beginner the Musicman spoke to me more. It had a tone that spoke to me more. But hang on I was just a beginner and so what did I know? Well instruments either talk to you or they don’t. I said right order me an Musicman and the guy in the shop said no it might not sound the same but that one. If you like that one buy that one. I find the same with hifi.
I'm another bass player. You are quite right about the Musicman. A much better pickup and in exactly the right place to produce the best resonance to the body. I spent a few hours playing around with placing a Musicman pickup and found in the end that it was exactly in the right place.

I have a Wal fretless bass I will be advertising at some point. I don't know if that interests you?
 

DomT

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I'm another bass player. You are quite right about the Musicman. A much better pickup and in exactly the right place to produce the best resonance to the body. I spent a few hours playing around with placing a Musicman pickup and found in the end that it was exactly in the right place.

I have a Wal fretless bass I will be advertising at some point. I don't know if that interests you?
Wow a Wal fretless! Great bass. As a Mick Karen fan I should be tempted but I am actually slimming down my studio gear right now.
 
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bencat

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@savvypaul I would make the following comment on your Quads that they currently are only showing a part of what they are capable of because you are using the original feet . These do not lift the speakers high enough and also include a tilt sending sound towards the ceiling to add reverbaration which was needed when they were used as mono speakers originally .

A pair of stands that lift them 12 - 18 inches off the floor and make the speakers fire straight ahead will sharpen up sound and give bass more definition . I did see that you may well be planning to stack a pair and that may well be why you are not looking at stands which is fair enough .

Found this which has some detailed plans for Stacked Quad stands which may well be useful either to follow or just to give you inspiration for your own design .

https://esl.drakkapps.com/stands/
 

pmcuk

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Yes - my stacked Quads were in a rigid frame and vertical. I probably had around 9" gap below them, can't remember. What was very important for the sound was taking the fronts and backs off. This is a safety hazard, so while I was young and careless at the time, you would have to find a solution for new and transparent fronts and backs that were safe to the touch. If you do all that you will be rewarded with pretty sensational sound. Large panels are beyond awesome.
 

rabski

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Been there and done the stacked pairs thing. Absolutely and completely domestically unnaceptable, of course. The sheer size of the bloody things in the end was just too much for me.

I also have to add that whilst stacking ESL57s does mitigate some of their shortfalls, it doesn't completely eliminate them. Notably, though the sweet spot is bigger, it's still not big. The load on an amplifier is also twice as brutal.

The alignment is crucial, or you can end up with a weird, unfocussed image where nothing is spatially located properly. Rather than being pinpoint accurate, vocals in particular can be diffused over an area and lose their lifelike feel.

Great, beyond doubt. In fact, really amazing. However, still compromised, like every speaker. I still say that everyone should have at least one pair of ESL57s at some time in their hifi journey, but it's telling that few people end up keeping them as their 'forever' speakers.
 

savvypaul

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Been there and done the stacked pairs thing. Absolutely and completely domestically unnaceptable, of course. The sheer size of the bloody things in the end was just too much for me.

I also have to add that whilst stacking ESL57s does mitigate some of their shortfalls, it doesn't completely eliminate them. Notably, though the sweet spot is bigger, it's still not big. The load on an amplifier is also twice as brutal.

The alignment is crucial, or you can end up with a weird, unfocussed image where nothing is spatially located properly. Rather than being pinpoint accurate, vocals in particular can be diffused over an area and lose their lifelike feel.

Great, beyond doubt. In fact, really amazing. However, still compromised, like every speaker. I still say that everyone should have at least one pair of ESL57s at some time in their hifi journey, but it's telling that few people end up keeping them as their 'forever' speakers.
We will only stack them at shows - otherwise, one pair will live at mine, the other pair will live at Mark's.

At the moment, I don't mind their flaws - but I am playing to their strengths by feeding them small scale classical, folk, country etc. They couldn't be my only pair of speakers, but when the vocals hit that sweet spot then I think I'll be able to just enjoy them for what they are - it's pretty special having Sandy Denny in the room with you.

Doing trade shows and bake-offs, I frequently (and quickly) tire of being pinned to the wall, by a wall of sound, and these are an intimate and fatigue-free relief against all that. I'm not chasing the last ounce of resolution or slam from them, I've got other stuff that can do that better without trying.
 
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bigrod

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@savvypaul I would make the following comment on your Quads that they currently are only showing a part of what they are capable of because you are using the original feet . These do not lift the speakers high enough and also include a tilt sending sound towards the ceiling to add reverbaration which was needed when they were used as mono speakers originally .

A pair of stands that lift them 12 - 18 inches off the floor and make the speakers fire straight ahead will sharpen up sound and give bass more definition . I did see that you may well be planning to stack a pair and that may well be why you are not looking at stands which is fair enough .

Found this which has some detailed plans for Stacked Quad stands which may well be useful either to follow or just to give you inspiration for your own design .

https://esl.drakkapps.com/stands/
They look awful with those stands imo
There is no reason why you still can’t make them look elegant.. which is what I’m working on at the moment
 

bencat

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Most elegant and quite possibly the best stands were made by Russ Andrews they were an A Frame which replaced the wooden side pieces and raised the speakers up and told d then forward . Lovely to look at and did the right Tunbridge sound . Sadly no longer made and RA would not release the plans for then so I could get a pair made . I would have had them stained black to match the grill .
 
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Nativebon

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Interesting thread and also getting to know more about people and how they approach music listening.
Anyway nothing special here. I've been a music producer from the mid 80s to the 2000s.
I landed my self an hour's interview with BBC Leeds back in the mid to late 90s I think. Also had a few of my jazz fusion muzic played on jazz FM back then.

I really love music and I want to enjoy muzic when listening to it. Now for me, the balance between listening as a muzic lover and critical listening. Dare I use the word 'musicality'... The balance of all aspects of the muzic. Tune and timing I believe is most important aspect of realism. Suddenly when the muzic sounds like real people playing... Expression of techniques while playing a musical instruments.

I've not got much experience like many here, but at the tender age of 57, ( got into buying hifi at later age)I like to think I know it when it sounds right. I'm glad to have found the wam and still learning along the way. Things can get intense sometimes with varying opinions, but hey, if all the same, would be boring.

Loving it, and I don't know what I'll do without muzic.
 

George 47

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Jeez what a great thread...music.

During the last bake-off it was interesting how many people had a similar view about being assaulted by audio or enjoying the music. Having a blast is fun but only for a short time and I am not sure people get to hear what the music is about, more listening to the thundering bass, ultra-detailed voices, and stunning treble etc. So what?

Oddly enough it takes you away from 400w/ch monsters weighing the same as a minor planet to ultra high quality amplifiers, normally fairly simple, playing into efficient speakers. Not always.

I have to admit despite trying many times I have never got into ESL57s. Maybe hearing a stacked pair would do it for me, but so far, so what. Sorry chaps.
 

Lurch

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Myself I've been on quite a journey since joining here in late 2016. However it has always been about the overall sound to me, yes I, like many love hearing all the detail in whatever I'm listening to, but not at the expense of the overall tonality. I've heard systems that pull everything out of the mix and just dump it in your lap, or throws it at me in a relentless manner, and yes, these systems can be very impressive for the first 10-15 minutes but longterm, no thanks. As for this true to the source, or accuracy argument, if what I'm hearing from my or anyone elses system is pleasing to me and provides a reasonable recreation of actual instruments/voices then I'm sorted.
For me its detail but as part of the whole performance 'coherence' and tonality that is king, and what I.'ve always aimed for in assembling my system.
 

Camverton

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I find that reproduced detail can help with the illusion of listening to the original performance, where there was one that is. It is why I was bowled over by Quad57s when I first heard them. The clean detail seemed to portray that fission, that sense of aliveness that I was hearing in concert halls.

That was 50 years ago and since then we have digital which has brought many benefits to the classical music enthusiast. Digital seemed to enhance the experience but in recent years I’ve come to appreciate that not all detail is equal. Ten years ago I was almost trying to knock it back a bit but with modern drivers and recent advances in digital reproduction I find I can enjoy the detail in a good recording without it becoming a distraction or irritation. It’s rather like viewing a really good TV that doesn’t need any edge enhancement to appear sharp or a photographer using a really good lens which didn’t need acutance enhancing developers - if anyone can remember that far back!

Those tiny details in the sound of a bow being drawn across a cello string really adds to sense that a performer is playing a real instrument in front of me. Detail reproduced badly, perhaps by an edgy tweeter or the wrong DAC, can destroy the illusion and irritate.

As for hifi being about accurately reproducing a recording, I really couldn’t care less as long as I perceive the original performance as sounding real to me. The most interesting thing about hifi is that it is a means of bringing music to life in our home. Assessing hifi without reference to the original performance or the perception of the listener strikes me as a pointless exercise. Of course, designers need to get involved with the more technical aspects of reproduction but for we lucky end users it is surely about the music.
 

savvypaul

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I've been searching for a way to describe the 57s without repeating the many thousands of words that others have already written about them. All I can say is that it feels as though there is very little hi-fi between the music and me...and I can't really ask for more than that.
 

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