More Digital Jiggery Pokery

bencat

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Well I was not going to write about this here as I find that there is less interest than in other places but as i spend lots of time on the site had second thoughts and decided to give it an airing .

Following the various comments on a number of forums but also the positive view of @Lurch on the Mutec 3+ USB reclocker I found a very good priced one some motnhs ago and installed it in my Main Music system - Allo Digione Signature Player - BNC SPDIF to Minidsp DDRC 22D - XLR Digital to Mutec 3+ XLR Digital - dCS Purcell upsampler - 2 x XLR Digital - dCS Delius DAC - RCA Phono to NVA 60P Power Amp - NVA LS2 Cable to Quad ESL 57 . The Mutec when inserted made a very positive and musical difference . But somehting was not quite all there and I decided to take the MiniDSP out of circuit and connect the Allo Digione directly using BNC to the Mutec . THis mada a very large difference and has produced the best sound I have heard from this system since I put it together . A friend and fellow wammer came round and without any prompting from me confirmed it was the best he had heard my system sound . So wonderful and there it should have stayed .

The @Lurch makes another comment regarding altering the Mutec from the SMPS inside the unit to an LPSU and says a mutal friend does this . So nothing I can do despite the great sound I am getting it starts to eat away at me and I sent my Mutec off to have the internal power supply removed and a 2.5mm plug replace the main input . Now I will be able to use an offboard LPSU and convert the Mutec .

Now I have been a little obsessive about LPSU in the chain in my systems and have mutliple LPSU,s fitted to everything so this I have to admit does appeal to me and even if it does nothing but make the change it will make me feel happy to have removed another SMPS from the mains . The Mutec has now been converted and will be back with me next week so will make any comments then . Sadly given the time delay it will not be possible to do a before and after comparison . However I have been invited to another music lover to visit him and he has an original Mutec so we can do a back to back with his system and then bring to my home and try it the same there as they say watch this space .
 

bencat

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Okay the Mutec arrived back today in good order the work on the fitting of the barrel plug is nice and neat . Only issue was I was told it was a 2.5 plug but turns out to be 2.2 so raided my spares box and get out a 2.2 to 2.5 converter panic over.

Plugged everything in switched on and lights came on and the Mutec traffic light set up goes on . So far so good . Left things setting up went in to the kitchen and made tea and toast , music starts playing in the music room so another good thing . Go back in ans it down and listen to the track playing sounds superb and everything is as it should be the first thing that strikes me is that quietness of the background the music is playing from what seems to be silence .

Now as I have I think already admitted due to the way i have had to do this I can only work on my audio memory of the Mutec as it was and we all know that is not as accurate as we would like . So I have decided to do something a little different as a musical test . I put on Radio 6 Music from BBC Sounds which is the 320kbs 48hz stream . Now in the past when I listened to this I was aware of the drop in quality from the FLAC streams from Radio Paradise and my own ripped music . In the past apart from on Sunday when I listen to Cerys I tend to listen to a couple of tracks get bored with the sound and switch back to my music . Today it was Mary Ann Hobbs somoen who plays lots of music I am not that keen on and I find talks drivel . However the tracks while not my taste now sounded quite good , not better than that very good . Then Craig Charles took over and i love Craig and also like lots of his choices of music . Stevie Wonder and Superstition plays and the bounce of the keyboards is there the roll of his voice everything just making me grin and this is not the best quality stream you can get . So now I know and I am certain changing to an LPSU has brought out much better quality and easier to listen music very obvious on lower quality music but no doubt also better on the higher quality rips I have it is just that they were excellent anyway so the difference while there is smaller. Now I want to get a really good quality LPSU such as an Sbooster or simialr for the Mutec and give it the best chance to shine .
 

bencat

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Right due to John sending me an Sbooster LPSU for the Mutec I have swapped out the DIY one I was using for the SBooster. Now given the time it takes to uplug one and insert another comparison is compromised so please accept this .

Well first thing to say is the DIY LPSU was doing a good job and the sound using it was much better in almost all areas than when using the original internal SMPS . So even if you just switch to a pretty basic but decent LPSU I think you will be getting so much more out of the Mutec.

Now on to the SBooster and of course John had to make it difficult and sent an ECO booster mkII . So since last Thursday I have been using the original SBooster without the mk II add on . Well it is just better again than the DIY unit the sound is still the same but quieter and cleaner in paticular in the treble . Bass is really taut and expressive with acoustic upright showing all the nuances and resonances that it is capable of . For some reason the music now has more boogie to it it seems to have added to the sense of speed of notes . All in all this is a worthwhile upgrade from a basic LPSU but not a large improvement more subtle and noticed over time .

I have not inserted the Mk II in to the stream yet and will leave that till later today and get back to this then .
 

lazycat

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Today it was Mary Ann Hobbs somone who plays lots of music I am not that keen on and I find talks drivel .
OT but I couldn't agree more. Can't listen to her show, she is extremely annoying even if I do like some of the music.

Well done with the improvements.
 

MotherSky

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OT but I couldn't agree more. Can't listen to her show, she is extremely annoying even if I do like some of the music.

Well done with the improvements.
100% OT, but could probably dedicate a whole thread to annoying R6 DJs - Hawkins, Ravenscroft, RadMac and Riley I could listen to all day, but I have real difficulty tolerating most of the rest - Hobbs in particular, although she does actually play quite a bit of stuff I like (I've never heard anyone else play Slint for example) - thank god for 'listen again' :)
 

bencat

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I knew when I started this that it was going to open up the rabbit hole and that there was going to be lots of tunnels and ways to get yourself lost . However as the steps I have taken up to now have all resulted in great sounding music I am happy to take the next step .

https://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=107&products_id=234

I have been told that this little unit is a very good and great sounding external clock that works . It can be powered by USB or as in my case a 12 V LPSU (I had a spre chifi one sitting next to my desk) . So I have decided to be brave and order one and then see how things go .

The first thing I will need to do is connect the LB Clock to my Mutec 3 using a BNC cable then set the Mutec to external clock . Doing this will hopefully give me a much more stable and accurate clock as master to reference all digital files sent to the Mutec . But this is just the start the Mutec also has the possibility of sending a clock output to an external device in my case dCS Delius which has a clock input option and can be switched to slave in the menu . So in this case using another BNC cable from the Mutec to the Delius I can get the ugraded clock signal form the LB right to the Delius . There is still one more option but I am not sure if this one is going to be possible and it is that my dCS Purcell DAC also has a clock input but this is different to the Delius . Now the Mutec has four clock outputs but I am not sure if I can get two different signals at varying frequency out .

So lots of fun and games to be had and in the first instance I am going to just connect the LB Clock to the Mutec and see what that does and if it changes the output sound in any way . After that if as I hope there is an improvement then live with that for a while and get used to this . Then once I am happy with were things are then will start on the connections to the dCS units .

Digital may well be just ones and zeros but it is never that simple . Lots reading this will be shaking their heads and saying what I am doing should make no difference at all . Well the same goes for when I added the Audio GD DDC unit and the Mutec and both did indeed make a difference so lets see were this goes . The best thing about this is that it is not spending the £1000,s that other external clocks like Mutec , Sotm and others cost this is a cheaper option but I have been told it is very well sorted and works , we must wait and see .
 
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bencat

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So now after a quick chat with someone that knows about Mutec,s the tunnels have just doubled . I can add external clock output now using two of my Mutecs clock outputs one each to dCS units . So may well try this tomorrow and see if I can get that working if I can then will hold off using the LB clock for a few days . Once I have a handle on how that sounds will look to incert the LB clock and see what that adds .
 
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bencat

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Well after a long ago due to user error and after being given the idiot set up guide I now have my Mutec set up and fed by the LB Clock . At this moment it is just a better clock to the Mutec there is still another connection of the Mutec external clock to my dCS Delius DAC but that is another idiot set up being needed and so will have to wait . Now what does a better clock sound like ? Well first up the test that I like to do which is listen too Six Music this is because it a decent feed but not the best of this can be improved then better quality sources will as well . I am very sure about the Mutec and the improvements it brings greater clarity , better and more real voices and instruments and easier hear and imagine sound stages . All still there but now just enhanced and more . The illusion now is just that but better and more lifelike . You are not being fooled when it is a bad recording that is still obvious but it is less of an issue the music takes over and you can hear through the poor recording and love the music . So a bit painful mainly for making me aware again how little I know and understand this but yes a better clock even when your current clock is really good does make a difference . If you have something that can be fed an external clock then try this you will I think be very pleased .
 
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bencat

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Okay just a little update and I just know @rabski is going to hate this but I have to there is just no way of me not admitting this . The addition of this clock is really very special what it gives the music is that reality I often feel is lacking . Most times when I listen even just while pottering about I find it very easy to know this just a recording . Only very rarely do I stop and think now that sounds real as if there are real people performing . Well this clock makes that happen on almost everything I have been listening to the last few days . Everything is more supple and flows unless moved deliberately instruments and voices stay locked in place no wandering around . Things now not only have a place in the sound stage but in the music as well playing together and getting a groove is hard to describe but easy to hear . More music sounds like this . I dread ever hearing any of the better clocks I have been told about as I just could never afford let alone justify buying one I am going to really try and never listen to one because once heard it is hard to forget . I have also found out that Leo Bodnar is a bit of a Guru in Radio circles and that this clock has been made for short wave radio use . He seems to have great technical knowledge and skills so not a surprise that he is able to make something as competent as this . Just which he would make one for the digital world with 75 ohm output as this would be perfect .
 
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rabski

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Incidentally, I'm not going to hate it at all. I can imagine some situations in which adding/overriding an internal clock could be beneficial.

It simply doesn't affect me, nor is it likely to as long as vinyl remains my primary source, and as long as I stick with my NOS build DAC.
 

bencat

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Sorry Richard was not talking about the clock but my gushing and over the top babble about this . I know you and I both dislike the night and day over the top descriptions and seriously I never thought I would become one of those but here I am and finding it hard not to gush even more . One thing I have decided to do is that I am going to bring the Mutec and the Leo Bodnar clock to the Wam Show and slot it in to my two way active system with Linn Sara's on the end . This is very different to my main system and it will be really interesting to me if this combination can pull off the same trick in that system .
 

newlash09

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Well after a long ago due to user error and after being given the idiot set up guide I now have my Mutec set up and fed by the LB Clock . At this moment it is just a better clock to the Mutec there is still another connection of the Mutec external clock to my dCS Delius DAC but that is another idiot set up being needed and so will have to wait . Now what does a better clock sound like ? Well first up the test that I like to do which is listen too Six Music this is because it a decent feed but not the best of this can be improved then better quality sources will as well . I am very sure about the Mutec and the improvements it brings greater clarity , better and more real voices and instruments and easier hear and imagine sound stages . All still there but now just enhanced and more . The illusion now is just that but better and more lifelike . You are not being fooled when it is a bad recording that is still obvious but it is less of an issue the music takes over and you can hear through the poor recording and love the music . So a bit painful mainly for making me aware again how little I know and understand this but yes a better clock even when your current clock is really good does make a difference . If you have something that can be fed an external clock then try this you will I think be very pleased .
Folks on the esoteric forums claim that a better external master clock adds upto a significant 15% improvement on the esoteric dac's. All in the very same areas of making it more real, better clarity and imaging. There seems to be one school of thought, that better the clock, better the resolution of harmonics, which ultimately results in more real sounding music. Iam currently saving up for a dac with a clock input.

And though people admit that it is not objectively possible to prove how a clock can impact network transmission, as the data is being sent in packets, and is still buffered ultimately. Subjectively, it is proving beneficial to clock the server, network switch and the dac to the same master clock as per many end users. And as per the dcs engineer answering queries about the bartok, clocking is showing improvement even via USB which is supposed to be asynchronous.
 

Cable Monkey

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External clocks work in a particular way for the purposes of domestic audio.
They are quiet.
They are precise.
There is no surprise here, Trichord clock upgrades were a popular hack on CD players before networked music. They included better clocks to meet precision requirements and better power supplies to address noise. It is where the much applauded ‘Never Connected’ supplies made their name.
 
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bencat

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Thanks for that Henry it is good to know there is reason behind what I am hearing . The really good thing about this little unit is it is relatively cheap and can be used with any item have an external clock input such as Benchmark , Gustard and Esoteric . The person that suggested this to me has access to lots of the current Audio Digital clocks from Esoteric and others and has compared the two . In his view this clock just works once set up and sounds as good and some times better than most of these very much more expensive ones . The only unit he says is that much better is the Mutec 10 but this is over £6000 so it should be better and I will not be even looking at one at that price unless the inevitable lottery win happens .

I am looking forward to bringing this combination to the Wam Show and I am not going to trial run it before the show . I will just dismantle everything and take it up there then fettle the whole thing including a full DIRAC Live session in the room and we will see what happens . This gives me a real interest and spice of what things will sound like which means I can get even more fun out of the occasion . The measurists on other forums have been out in force and told me that this clock is in fact very poor and would not be better than those fitted to my DAC plus that the best place for a clock is deep inside the DAC as close to the chips as possible . of course they have never tried what I have done to see for themselves and I suppose they never will . Thye are linking to tests done in 1998 and to an article in a pro magazine from 2013 as if things have never advanced since then . Still as do not have the technical knowledge regarding this I can remain in ignorant bliss and enjoy the wonderful music my down grade has provided .
 

Cable Monkey

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I very specifically mentioned their use in domestic audio as opposed to pro audio. In pro audio clocks are used as a reference to which a number of clocks in digital devices slave. This ensures they ‘speak’ to each other reliably. They simply are not required for that in a domestic setup. Reliable transmission of 0 and 1’s is not an issue and these reference clocks shouldn’t be needed. But the problem is digital audio promised perfect sound, we listened and got something with none of the vices of affordable analogue audio and accepted that promise on face value. You can’t improve on ‘perfect’ right? It turns out you can, but you are battling a 40 year old marketing slogan. Whoever came up with that one certainly earned their salary that day!
 

bencat

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This set up is now beyond being in any doubt and if it is brain induced then thank you brain . I am just playing a d doing things in the music room to listen to this system now . I only reluctantly go to my PC in the spare room when it is something I need to do on the PC and I find myself doing that then going back to my main system to listen . I am told that using a good quality OCXO board gives similar results so this gifted amongst you can make your own at less cost . Really not that bothered about measurements given the way this changes my whole system but I have been made aware that there is an impedance mid match with most clocks being 50 ohm output and audio kit working on 75 ohm . Not sure if this has an impact on sound quality but I am working on a fix with my set up . As others will be different will not detail it here but PM me if interested .
 

Cable Monkey

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Assuming the output is a sine wave, the fix should be to put an impedance matched in line low pass filter at 11Mhz. The side effect of that is it makes the impedance of the connected gear irrelevant.
 

bencat

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@Cable Monkey you will no doubt be right but in my case what I am doing is get a correctly specified 50 ohm BNC cable . Within the Mutec there is a plug link which can be swtiched which takes the 75 ohm match out of line . I am then going to use good quality 50 ohm Through Terminator and connect the 50 ohm cable to that then in to the Mutec . Probably a bit more involved but a fix .
 

Cable Monkey

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@Cable Monkey you will no doubt be right but in my case what I am doing is get a correctly specified 50 ohm BNC cable . Within the Mutec there is a plug link which can be swtiched which takes the 75 ohm match out of line . I am then going to use good quality 50 ohm Through Terminator and connect the 50 ohm cable to that then in to the Mutec . Probably a bit more involved but a fix .
It is actually the correct way. Matched impedances all the way. Mine was a hack suggested on a white paper a while back. I had to order a 50 ohm variant of the device I wanted to sync with my streaming DAC and that meant a special order with the 75ohm components desoldered and replaced with the correct values for 50ohm. The designer later proposed the filter.
 
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