Can't stand treble

[toms wait]

It was not at all inane, if it was you and your little group wouldn't be getting so hot under the collar about it. You don't have the right to determine what is intended as a humourous and what is not: your reaction says more about you than what was actually said.

There are parallels between the two situations I posited in my comment. You could start by learning about theories around mediation in art: you could begin by reading The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction by Walter Benjamin, which is almost 90 years old and there's been plenty debate on the subject before and since, it's nothing new.

Anyway, I'll leave you to yourselves: I wont be reading any further replies to this thread, or anything else you post for that matter.

blah blah blah, careful when you step off the soap box, it might be mighty high

 

[uzzy]

the tweeter is history.

as they say, One man's sonic nirvana is another man's earache, or for me without a tweeter not earache but a loss of sparkle shimmer and reality .. different strokes for different folks

 

[toms wait]

as they say, One man's sonic nirvana is another man's earache, or for me without a tweeter not earache but a loss of sparkle shimmer and reality .. different strokes for different folks

It loses none of those things, in my room etc etc

 

[rocky raccoon]

I have two generations of Focal tweeter in this room as I speak (the Electra 926's are still here, behind me and the Be's are in front and connected)) and I understand why they (and similar high performance) tweeters get a bad press, particularly on British forums.
At the risk of making blanket generalisations, British enthuisiasts tend to put domestic harmony above all else, and they tend not to use amplifiers that will drive nasty loads without running out of puff.
If you are lucky enough to be able to pull your speakers away from the walls without incurring the wrath of SWMBO, if you can acoustically treat your room and if you have an amplifier(s) with enough grunt, then, as if by magic, all notions of aggressive treble tend to dissapear.
I have been there myself. I bought the Electra 926's , connected them up, loved them, pushed them with one pair of JLH monoblocks and nearly took them back because of a percieved HF distortion. I thought the tweeters were damaged ! I chanced upon a second pair of JLH mono's, Bi amped them and had to go and apologise to the dealer. This is an 80 watt class A monoblock we are talking about here (conservatively rated), with a very stiff power supply that has no trouble driving passive ATC 100's to convincing levels.... No bass distortion. The issue made itself apparent in the treble.
I have been listening to that system for over a decade, until recently when I changed speakers (more JM Lab/Focal but Be tweeters) and different amps. The old system is fantastic. Only changed for... guess what - more HF detail....... And believe me, I hate aggressive treble and any kind of distortion.

More 'on topic' would be the case of an audiophile buddy of mine who's wife has damaged hearing. Paradoxically, this defect in her hearing makes her more sensitive to aggressive treble or poor recordings etc.
She heard the 926's (with the titanium inverted dome a la Wilson, Neat etc) and, in a lightly treated room, was very happy. I am reliably informed (and knowing her, I have no doubt) that she would have let it be known if it grated her ears !
So, by all means disconnect the tweeters. After all, you are the boss ! But alternatively, and if you have the means, and they are not entirely financial, experiment with other avenues. By which I mean room treatment, amplifiers with amps, and what is generally regarded as radical speaker positioning.

 

[toms wait]

I am afraid the room is quite small and cannot accommodate away from the wall siting, it is also adjacent to another family room.
I can't really do room treatments, again too small a room and it is one of 2 family rooms.

Having recently bought a 300B power amp to use as a main amp I think I have used what few brownie points I have had.

I am happy with how it is sounding at present, and can always use the modified H6 which have tweeters and again sound fine.

 

[bigrod]

Isn't listening to hifi whilst wearing hearing aids about as worthwhile as evaluating the SQ of a pair of speakers via a YouTube demonstration?

You learn to live and adapt with a hearing disability as with any other disability.. For sure we’re not going to hear anything like we did before having hearing aids .. and although I don’t use hearing aids my ears aren’t the same after 65 years ..and so has my choice of speakers .. I’ve had to adapt to the inevitable..but I’ve still got a good ear for quality.
My late uncle in the final stages of leukaemia with a lot of senses failing stilled loved to sit there with me listening to his Tannoys , and his ethos hasn’t failed me yet ..
But I get we’re you’re coming from but everything in this hobby is worthwhile

 

[rocky raccoon]

I am afraid the room is quite small and cannot accommodate away from the wall siting, it is also adjacent to another family room.
I can't really do room treatments, again too small a room and it is one of 2 family rooms.

Having recently bought a 300B power amp to use as a main amp I think I have used what few brownie points I have had.

I am happy with how it is sounding at present, and can always use the modified H6 which have tweeters and again sound fine.

No room is too small for room treatment, and arguably, smaller rooms need it more - although the old gaffer is in the process of treating his massive room - and already, you can hear the difference just talking......
This can be done for less than the price of a meal in a restaurant.
Where abouts are you Tom ? I would be very happy to provide a free demonstration with a couple of my DIY absorbtive panels - that is - if you do not live a thousand miles away from Cambridge.......
My listening room is the smallest I have ever had - yet, with a few DIY panels and a bit of experience (this is my fourth residence after taking things seriously) I can categorically say I have the best sound I ever had. Really, it's down to a few well positioned DIY panels and speaker positioning.
Like I say, if you want to hear, let me know.

 

[toms wait]

I worked in architecture so understand a bit about room acoustics. My room being small, carpeted, curtained at both ends and having a very large sofa is quite neutral.
Thank you for the offer/interest, I am miles from Cambridge.

 

[uzzy]

I understand why they (and similar high performance) tweeters get a bad press, particularly on British forums.
At the risk of making blanket generalisations, British enthuisiasts tend to put domestic harmony above all else, and they tend not to use amplifiers that will drive nasty loads without running out of puff.
If you are lucky enough to be able to pull your speakers away from the walls without incurring the wrath of SWMBO, if you can acoustically treat your room and if you have an amplifier(s) with enough grunt, then, as if by magic, all notions of aggressive treble tend to dissapear

Oh dear ... Well all I do know is the Focal room would not play a CD I brought along on the Utopias (because they knew it would show up the nasties perhaps).

I have heard lots of Focals on high powered amps of various makes and they set my ears ringing .. Wilson have seen the light and no longer use the metal Focal Tweeter. I know of another manufacturer that used them in their early models (Art) and soon changed back to silk domes (and now diamond ones).

Any speaker on an amp insufficient will run to clipping which will result in nasty high end distortion (and eventually the demise of the tweeter) .. it is for me an apt description of the sound of some metal tweeters in use (Focal included) when the volume is raised to realistic listening levels.

The thing is you may love them but others do not and that is great, after all one man's sonic nirvana is another man's earache.

 

[rocky raccoon]

Oh dear ... Well all I do know is the Focal room would not play a CD I brought along on the Utopias (because they knew it would show up the nasties perhaps).

I have heard lots of Focals on high powered amps of various makes and they set my ears ringing .. Wilson have seen the light and no longer use the metal Focal Tweeter. I know of another manufacturer that used them in their early models (Art) and soon changed back to silk domes (and now diamond ones).

Any speaker on an amp insufficient will run to clipping which will result in nasty high end distortion (and eventually the demise of the tweeter) .. it is for me an apt description of the sound of some metal tweeters in use (Focal included) when the volume is raised to realistic listening levels.

The thing is you may love them but others do not and that is great, after all one man's sonic nirvana is another man's earache.

As I say, I beleive that there are serveral reasons why the Focal tweeters can be brash. Amplifiers are just one. The quality of the recorded music is another. So is the level - as you alude to.
I have the priviledge of access to a pair of ATC SCM 100 ASL's and, with the (in)appropriate material at, what should be an easy level of playback volume, they too can be made to burn your ears. This is not something that ATC are known for. Typically, you only know it's loud when you try and converse with someone.
I am particularly sensitive to brash treble or any other kind of distortion. I carry ear plugs with me the way smokers carry lighters. But I love detail and separation. My comments on the Focal speakers are limited to my personal experience. But room acoustics and positioning make a big difference.
Your mileage may vary.

 

[uzzy]

As I say, I beleive that there are serveral reasons why the Focal tweeters can be brash.

Well in my experience, to my ears, they always sound off .. each to their own. Match it with a bright amp (Chord) and the effect is worse. It is possible to tame them but even with the softest sounding of amps (mainly valve) the problem is still there with my ears.

As I said you may think different but Wilson moved away from them, and Art moved away from them. But it goes to show you may not like the new Wilsons (but all the reviewers feel the Sasha is a major improvement on the Watt Puppies (mainly upper mids and top end).

You chose them because your ears loved them .. but others regardless of what is feeding them feel differently.

 

[rocky raccoon]

Well in my experience, to my ears, they always sound off .. each to their own. Match it with a bright amp (Chord) and the effect is worse. It is possible to tame them but even with the softest sounding of amps (mainly valve) the problem is still there with my ears.

As I said you may think different but Wilson moved away from them, and Art moved away from them. But it goes to show you may not like the new Wilsons (but all the reviewers feel the Sasha is a major improvement on the Watt Puppies (mainly upper mids and top end).

You chose them because your ears loved them .. but others regardless of what is feeding them feel differently.

I am sure you are right. I only wanted to offer a few ideas as to why that might be the case.
There are easier speakers out there which do not require total no-compromise measures.
But if you are able, and you like what they do, then magic happens.
I submit that this is not entirely down to taste, but rather, the (admittedly) tricky requirements of the speakers in terms of room acoustics, positioning and impeidance.
You make a good point in that if you were going to buy a pair of speakers and were not prepared to sacrifice domestic harmony, then they probably would not be the first choice !

 

[uzzy]

You make a good point in that if you were going to buy a pair of speakers and were not prepared to sacrifice domestic harmony, then they probably would not be the first choice !

I never said anything about domestic harmony - but for that to happen, make sure the missus comes to choose speakers with you so you know she likes the sound of them too.

If you choose right then looks do not come into it (for the speakers that is), it was my wife told me we had to have the Art Impressions and in terms of ugly they are right up there.

 

[tuga]

As I say, I beleive that there are serveral reasons why the Focal tweeters can be brash. Amplifiers are just one. The quality of the recorded music is another. So is the level - as you alude to.
I have the priviledge of access to a pair of ATC SCM 100 ASL's and, with the (in)appropriate material at, what should be an easy level of playback volume, they too can be made to burn your ears. This is not something that ATC are known for. Typically, you only know it's loud when you try and converse with someone.
I am particularly sensitive to brash treble or any other kind of distortion. I carry ear plugs with me the way smokers carry lighters. But I love detail and separation. My comments on the Focal speakers are limited to my personal experience. But room acoustics and positioning make a big difference.
Your mileage may vary.

I think that the reason why JMLab/ Focal tweeters were 'brash-sounding' was poor design.

I used to keep clear of Focal tweeters having experienced ear bleed at a few shows, but having seen measurements of the current model it seems they have overcome the issues (they no longer break up in the audio band and the decay is a lot cleaner).
Have yet to listen, though.

 

[marko]

I just can’t live with accentuated treble. I think it’s possible to use a resistor on the speaker terminals to reduce treble output, though not too sure how to rig this up.
The ANJ’s we use sound lovely in the treble, though we still use these home made tweeter covers, variations of which we’ve used for 20 years on AN and other makes of speakers. It’s just a preference and probably a reflection on my hearing!
The idea behind this ‘Fred Flintstone’ approach is to reduce the dB output of the tweeter; really not too sure re the science behind this . Anyway, seems to work ok.

 

[rocky raccoon]

I think that the reason why JMLab/ Focal tweeters were 'brash-sounding' was poor design.

I used to keep clear of Focal tweeters having experienced ear bleed at a few shows, but having seen measurements of the current model it seems they have overcome the issues (they no longer break up in the audio band and the decay is a lot cleaner).
Have yet to listen, though.

Thank you Tuga. Will you please shut up now ? I'm trying to sell my 926 Electra's in the classifieds.
Not that there's anything wrong with them. They sound fantastic.

 

[tuga]

Thank you Tuga. Will you please shut up now ? I'm trying to sell my 926 Electra's in the classifieds.
Not that there's anything wrong with them. They sound fantastic.

For what it’s worth some people will hate them and others will love them. It’s the nature of taste.

 

[JANDL100]

I'm also firmly in the " can't stand treble " camp.

My personal preference is a Lowther based speaker that has very little above 6k.

Maybe change your forum id from Fullrange to Lowpassfilter?

Sorry, forgive me, I couldn't resist.

***

I'm similar, though.
I've always been over sensitive to peaky and or exaggerated high frequencies.
A forum favourite brand of speaker is out of bounds for me for that reason.

And I generally prefer to cut out sounds above 6 or 7 kHz these days.
I assumed that was an age related thing.
My hearing at 67 goes up to 9khz but I find the uppermost frequencies can often make the overall sound seem a bit shrill.

 

[uzzy]

I think it’s possible to use a resistor on the speaker terminals to reduce treble output, though not too sure how to rig this up.

It is easy .. the safest route is to remove the tweeter and disconnect the positive cable .. connect a 15 watt 1 ohm resistor to the positive cable and then to the positive terminal on the tweeter and reinsert it (in series) . If there is not enough treble recession from this then increase the ohm value.

It is possible to do externally and connect the resistor between the positive speaker lead and the positive terminal on the speaker if bi wiring is in place. Ideally you need to put it in a box of some sort (an old screw top pill box will do) with terminals top and bottom to connect the speaker lead to one and the other run a short lead to the positive tweeter input.

Some may say to use shrink wrap but the resistor will get warm in use and air around it is better IMO,

 

[toms wait]

Or an L-pad resistor filter.
Have a look at google it will explain all.
The H2 goes to 6khz with the tweeter now history.