Bruckner

[JANDL100]

For the 7th I would like to suggest suggest Giulini/Vienna and Matacic/Czech. For the 9th again Giulini/Vienna.

Unfortunately I haven't been in a Bruckner mood for some years...

Ah the great Lovro von Matacic. A Brucknerian of great ability.
I heard him conduct several times in the RFH.

All of his Czech Philharmonic and NHK SO Bruckner recordings on Supraphon or Denon are very worthwhile imo, but sadly unavailable streamed afaik.

Luckily I have the CDs.

 

[josh]

Very interesting Josh, and I have a particular interest as I think the 9th one of the greatest symphonies ever composed.

Interesting, how come / what makes it so special for you?

Oddly enough one of the reasons I rate it so highly is because of it’s intensity.

The 9th - light hearted and relaxed? Eh? Sure it was the right disc you played?

Ok ok, I've clearly done it wrong Maybe I've used the wrong words. What I meant was it seemed quieter and more subdued, coming from the 3rd Symphony beforehand. Not necessarily not as intense. I'll listen again though and see if I can better state my thoughts....

Have you tried Karajan or Klemperer yet?

... no, will try one of them - which recordings? This for Karajan?

@tuga "For the 9th again Giulini/Vienna."
- So I had actually bought Giulini's 9th some time ago, along with Wand's, but haven't yet got round to giving it a listen. I was wondering where Giulini came from as I bought Wand on @JANDL100 's recommendation, but I've seen recently he doesn't like Giulini for Bruckner - unless he changed his mind - so maybe I picked it up from someone else's! I should give it a listen.

Btw currently listening to the 5th with Sawallisch - really enjoying it so far (halfway through). Probably one of my favs so far.

 

[JANDL100]

No, not keen on Giulini in Bruckner.
Too sloooooow.

Slow can be fine, but I think it needs the magical intensity of a Celibidace, who takes it seriously slowly, to really make it work.

Giulini doesn't do it for me. It just drags.
Others love him, fair enough, so make up your own mind.

 

[josh]

No, not keen on Giulini in Bruckner.
Too sloooooow.

Slow can be fine, but I think it needs the magical intensity of a Celibidace, who takes it seriously slowly, to really make it work.

Giulini doesn't do it for me. It just drags.
Others love him, fair enough, so make up your own mind.

Yeah will do - I have it now so will give it a listen!

For Celi, any particular ones to start with or just his whole cycle?

Btw really liked Sawallisch/5th.

Is this the right Solti/6th?

 

[JANDL100]

Yup, that's the only Solti Bruckner that I know.

For Celi, I'm not so taken with his DG recordings.

 

[musicbox]

Personally I'd avoid Celibidache at all costs. Painfully slow, the music just falls apart from lack of momentum.

Guilini is good. Favourite 9ths are Wand/NDR SO in Lubeck cathedral, Fabio Luisi and Dresden Staatskapelle, Simone Young and Hamburg Phil, or surprisingly Simon Rattle and BPO.

 

[JANDL100]

Celi certainly has a unique and unconventional way with Bruckner.
Which is why I suggested not listening until you had a fairly solid familiarity with the relevant symphony.

At his best I find him totally compelling.
The DG recordings I tend to find tedious.

I heard him live several times at the RFH.
Wow. Just wow.
Full houses, entire audience totally entranced.
Definitely at his best live, rather than the recording studio imo.

 

[tuga]

Have you tried Blomstedt with Dresden? I like the 4th and 7th.

 

[JANDL100]

Have you tried Blomstedt with Dresden? I like the 4th and 7th.

That reminds me, Blomstedt's Bruckner 6 with the San Francisco SO on Decca is superb!

I've not yet tried any of his other recordings.
So much Bruckner, so little time.

 

[josh]

I tried Solti. Have to say I didn't love the piece. So tried again with Klemperer that you previously recommended and I think I prefer it with him.

Overall don't think the 6th is one of my favourite of B's symphonies though. If I had to rank, then it'd be something like this (based on my overall recollections - I definitely do need to go back and hear #7 and #4 again).
7, 5, 4/9/8*, 6, 3

*not much between these three for me

Right back to the 9th with Giulini - I was expecting a snoozefest (he's 12mins longer than Sawallisch, which is quite a lot given the piece is about an hour) but found it enjoyable still. I went back to Sawallisch and Jochum for a quick listen to select parts - it's funny, they seemed quite quick now relatively. I guess I have no feel for how fast Bruckner 'should' be played so can't tell if Giulini is too slow (as per Jerry) or the others too fast.

I'll just say that in my ignorant opinion, I enjoyed both Giulini and Sawallisch and there's room for both in my collection

@musicbox

Favourite 9ths are Wand/NDR SO in Lubeck cathedral, Fabio Luisi and Dresden Staatskapelle, Simone Young and Hamburg Phil, or surprisingly Simon Rattle and BPO.

I'll give some of those a go too, thanks.

 

[Camverton]

Interesting, how come / what makes it so special for you?




Ok ok, I've clearly done it wrong Maybe I've used the wrong words. What I meant was it seemed quieter and more subdued, coming from the 3rd Symphony beforehand. Not necessarily not as intense. I'll listen again though and see if I can better state my thoughts....


... no, will try one of them - which recordings? This for Karajan?

@tuga "For the 9th again Giulini/Vienna."
- So I had actually bought Giulini's 9th some time ago, along with Wand's, but haven't yet got round to giving it a listen. I was wondering where Giulini came from as I bought Wand on @JANDL100 's recommendation, but I've seen recently he doesn't like Giulini for Bruckner - unless he changed his mind - so maybe I picked it up from someone else's! I should give it a listen.

Btw currently listening to the 5th with Sawallisch - really enjoying it so far (halfway through). Probably one of my favs so far.

Karajan? The version I was referring to was recorded c1976.

I’m not at all religious but Bruckner’s 9th does engender in me what I might call a secular spirituality, which is something of a challenging contradiction. I like art, music and painting in particular, to challenge me, make me question.

Apart from that I find it’s three movements a wonderful musical construction, even the scherzo is bearable (!) I’m not fond of Bruckner scherzos. The last, big climax in the slow movement is extraordinarily powerful and yet the last phrase of it raises as many questions as it answers. Compare Karajan and Klemperer and the way each of them play it.

So much music is decorative or thrilling etc but for me Bruckner 9 is amongst a relatively small number of works that take one into a “place” beyond the limits of one’s imagination, much in the same way as late Beethoven, much of Bach and many of the Shostakovich string quartets. It’s as though the composers present us with something which is a catalyst to open our minds in a way that we couldn’t do by ourselves. I think that because we have to bring something of ourselves to the party, and because our moods change, the music can be heard an infinite number of times without it becoming us tiring of it. It’s a strange thing that every time I listen to a late Beethoven string quartet it is as fresh as if I am hearing for the first time.

 

[Camverton]

Thank you @josh !

Your posts have had me listening to Karajan‘s Bruckner 9 again followed by just the last movement by Klemperer. Goodness me, Karajan’s Bruckner leaves planet earth and takes mankind to a world apart. Klemperer on the other hand struck me as more earthbound, as though man is aware of something beyond his comprehension but is sat here struggling with such concepts, in a way his performance is more disturbing whereas Karajan takes us through and beyond the struggle to some sort of “heaven”.

Still not enough to make me religious but if anything could convert me to believe in some supernatural deity this symphony would be it!

Well, just one more before bed, so the ending of the symphony with Bruno Walter 1959 and if anything a better sounding recording. This has me enjoying magnificent music but doesn’t seem to take my mind on extra musical journey. Beautiful performance though and probably the best before bed!

 

[JANDL100]

> I guess I have no feel for how fast Bruckner 'should' be played so can't tell if Giulini is too slow (as per Jerry) or the others too fast.<

No such thing, really, as too fast or too slow.

I don't like Giulini for being too slow, but I enjoy Celibidache who is much slower!

It's about the phrasing and dynamics, and how they interact with the overall pacing.
Musical interpretation is the key. I'm not won over by Giulini's, he doesn't carry me with him. Tbh I'm not a fan of Giulini in general. Others venerate him.
It's all personal preference.

 

[josh]

so the ending of the symphony with Bruno Walter 1959 and if anything a better sounding recording

This one? If so, I liked it but didn't quite hit the spot, similar to your experience I guess: Amazon product

I found the Karajan recording. Which Klemperer are you referring to - this one?

Will try them out.

It's about the phrasing and dynamics, and how they interact with the overall pacing.
Musical interpretation is the key. I'm not won over by Giulini's, he doesn't carry me with him.

I understand what you mean conceptually - not sure I can discern it when I'm listening to the piece, although I'm not sure what to listen for. I'm interested to try Celi now to see the difference. Maybe this is too difficult an ask, but can you offer any guidance as to what to listen out for? Like are there any moments which stand out as a good meeting of phrasing/dynamics and pacing? I'll see what I can sense from listening through in any case.

 

[Camverton]

This one? If so, I liked it but didn't quite hit the spot, similar to your experience I guess: Amazon product

I found the Karajan recording. Which Klemperer are you referring to - this one?

Will try them out.


I understand what you mean conceptually - not sure I can discern it when I'm listening to the piece, although I'm not sure what to listen for. I'm interested to try Celi now to see the difference. Maybe this is too difficult an ask, but can you offer any guidance as to what to listen out for? Like are there any moments which stand out as a good meeting of phrasing/dynamics and pacing? I'll see what I can sense from listening through in any case.

As far as I know he only recorded it once, it appeared on CD in a box set of 4-9. In some ways his ninth is a bit shambolic at times but in a curious way that adds to the feeling of disquiet.

It is, perhaps, not a first choice for someone getting to know the symphony so much as a performance which lays bare the emotions contained within. I got to know it from the LP which appeared iirc in a rather nice sleeve with blue sky and clouds. It was probably one of my most played LPs.

 

[josh]

I’m not at all religious but Bruckner’s 9th does engender in me what I might call a secular spirituality, which is something of a challenging contradiction. I like art, music and painting in particular, to challenge me, make me question.

So much music is decorative or thrilling etc but for me Bruckner 9 is amongst a relatively small number of works that take one into a “place” beyond the limits of one’s imagination, much in the same way as late Beethoven, much of Bach and many of the Shostakovich string quartets. It’s as though the composers present us with something which is a catalyst to open our minds in a way that we couldn’t do by ourselves. I think that because we have to bring something of ourselves to the party, and because our moods change, the music can be heard an infinite number of times without it becoming us tiring of it. It’s a strange thing that every time I listen to a late Beethoven string quartet it is as fresh as if I am hearing for the first time.

I think that's probably the purpose of all good art - to move one. Doesn't need to be religion-dependent. I have to say that while I do get that experience with a lot of music, I'm not there (yet?!) with classical music, apart from a few select pieces. But it's something that I'm looking forward to attaining as my appreciation and understanding grows.

As far as I know he only recorded it once, it appeared on CD in a box set of 4-9. In some ways his ninth is a bit shambolic at times but in a curious way that adds to the feeling of disquiet.

Ok, I think it's the same as it says it was recorded in 1957. I don't know the piece well enough to know if it was shambolic, but enjoyed it nonetheless, if it wasn't a favourite.

 

[Camverton]

I think that's probably the purpose of all good art - to move one. Doesn't need to be religion-dependent. I have to say that while I do get that experience with a lot of music, I'm not there (yet?!) with classical music, apart from a few select pieces. But it's something that I'm looking forward to attaining as my appreciation and understanding grows.


Ok, I think it's the same as it says it was recorded in 1957. I don't know the piece well enough to know if it was shambolic, but enjoyed it nonetheless, if it wasn't a favourite.

Interesting points. Mahler, Bruckner and Sibelius were the first classical composers I got to grips with. At first I liked the sound world, very different in each case, before starting to make sense of how the music was constructed. It was later that I got into what might be called the inner world or heart of the music and moved more to the chamber and instrumental music of Beethoven, Bach and Shostakovich. I once listened to a version of Shostakovich string quartet no.13 every night for a couple of months and each night was discovering new things in it.

Fifty years later I am still finding new things in the music - or maybe myself (!) in a way that more overtly emotional music like that of Tchaikovsky rarely does.

 

[josh]

Mahler, Bruckner and Sibelius were the first classical composers I got to grips with... and moved more to the chamber and instrumental music of Beethoven, Bach and Shostakovich.

So funny, my journey was the other way round! Hence why I'm only really getting to Mahler and Bruckner.

I once listened to a version of Shostakovich string quartet no.13 every night for a couple of months and each night was discovering new things in it.

I will definitely need to go back and listen to some pieces many more times. Currently I want to cover canonical ground more broadly, but do recognise I'll need to re-listen to works a lot to get the best out of them.

Fifty years later I am still finding new things in the music - or maybe myself (!)

Probably true of any good work of art!

 

[josh]

Ok, I'm going to skip symphonies 1 and 2 for now, but for 0 and 00, what are the recs?

I've got Lizzio for 0 (believe a @JANDL100 rec):

and also saw he liked this for 0/1:

any others, and for 00?

 

[tuga]

Overall don't think the 6th is one of my favourite of B's symphonies though. If I had to rank, then it'd be something like this (based on my overall recollections - I definitely do need to go back and hear #7 and #4 again).
7, 5, 4/9/8*, 6, 3

*not much between these three for me

That matches my preference as well.