Kiang

The Great Cable Debate

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Tel wrote:

oldphrt wrote:
Tel wrote:
oldphrt wrote:
As this is in the technical area and it's obvious there is no way that a mains lead can influence the performance of anything what was the point of the test?

Surely all 'hypothesis', 'theories' and 'laws' whether obvious or not should be tested?

If nothing is ever challenged or tested nothing will ever change and we would still be believing Einstein! :rofl:

And look how wrong he was :)

Fair enough, but I think it should have remained in the 2 channel section with all the other baseless subjectivist claptrap.

That is an opinion Fred and has no place in the tech section :)

Fred, as much as your one liners make me chuckle, I would have thought this area would at least make sense to you.

People DO hear differences, this area of the forum is about finding out why. And also about lifting the lid on a lot of the nonsense promoted as "hifi" round these parts.

Without the willingness to test things unemotionaly, and to not have actually experienced some of these things yourself, the accusations of trolling aimed at you start to make more sense to me.

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Guest oldphrt

HiFiWigWam wrote:

Tel wrote:
oldphrt wrote:
Tel wrote:
oldphrt wrote:
As this is in the technical area and it's obvious there is no way that a mains lead can influence the performance of anything what was the point of the test?

Surely all 'hypothesis', 'theories' and 'laws' whether obvious or not should be tested?

If nothing is ever challenged or tested nothing will ever change and we would still be believing Einstein! :rofl:

And look how wrong he was :)

Fair enough, but I think it should have remained in the 2 channel section with all the other baseless subjectivist claptrap.

That is an opinion Fred and has no place in the tech section :)

Fred, as much as your one liners make me chuckle, I would have thought this area would at least make sense to you.

People DO hear differences, this area of the forum is about finding out why. And also about lifting the lid on a lot of the nonsense promoted as "hifi" round these parts.

Without the willingness to test things unemotionaly, and to not have actually experienced some of these things yourself, the accusations of trolling aimed at you start to make more sense to me.

OK, point taken. :)

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do cables matter

yes

they have to reach both ends

nuff said

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Super Wammer

I will be moving my speakers so may need 10m lengths of speaker cable which I am likely to hide within trunking.

So as to keep this within a technical question, no foo/not foo arguments here please, is there a min CSA that I should be looking for? Is there a real (as opposed to just disliking the thought of using it) reason for not using bell wire.

Does solid core have a disadvantage other than being less bendy?

Copper seems cheaper than silver so I assume there is no disadvantage to using copper.

Speakers are wired in Kondo copper but I will NOT be buying 20m of it.

Once the min. CSA issue is resolved I presume it is just the case of finding the cheapest seller of that type of cable?

Please no cable wars :)

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Yoda, I see you have made nearly 2.5 thousand posts - surely you must have read the answer to most of your questions by now (or at least, peoples opinion on these issues)?

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Moderator

For 10m you want better than 2 mm2, which is considerably thicker than bell wire.

Solid core is less bendy, more likely to break, and more likely to work loose in a screwed-down connection.

Van Damme 2.5 or 4 mm2 would be fine.

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I came across this via a link on avsforum. Thanks for several hours worth of amusing reading guys. :^

Does anyone actually still believe that power cables make a difference? Seriously? Well, takes all sorts I guess. ;-)

And, btw, I'm the first poster of 2011. :TheBird:

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I came across this via a link on avsforum. Thanks for several hours worth of amusing reading guys. :^

Does anyone actually still believe that power cables make a difference? Seriously? Well, takes all sorts I guess. ;-)

And, btw, I'm the first poster of 2011. :TheBird:

First poster of 2011 to do what?

Post on a done to death thread?

Sorry mate there are resurrectionists all over the Wam

ThreadResurrection2.jpg

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Came across this interesting post by an amp mfr on another forum and thought i might share:

01-14-11: Atmasphere

Pubul57, there are 4 functions of a line stage:

1) add any needed gain- not all sources are able to drive an amplifier to full output.

2) provide for input and volume control- this function is shared by most passive and TVC systems.

3) buffer the volume control from the output- this prevents the load from interacting with the volume control setting, and prevents the control from exercising a tonality.

4) control the interconnect cable- which is done by having a low output impedance which swamps (makes negligible) the capacitive, inductive, resistive and other aspects of the cable.

Of these four, the latter is least understood, even by the industry that makes active line stages. This issue though is so profound that it is arguably the most important beyond actual volume control.

Its been my experience that if the line section controls the interconnect cable, then it has a good chance of outperforming a passive control or TVC. The reason is that the interconnect cable will cease to be an important part of the system sound. I'm pretty sure just about anyone who has set up a system using single-ended cables is aware of how much difference the cables themselves can make.

With any passive volume control, the cables are paramount and must be kept short for best performance. OTOH if the line stage is designed properly then you can run cables of nearly any length and the difference between the most expensive and the least expensive will be hard to hear. This latter fact is one that most cable manufacturers would rather you not know.

IOW if you can hear differences in the cable between the line section/passive and the power amp, then the cable is not being controlled.

A barrier to performance in many preamps, particularly tube preamps, is the output coupling capacitor. It must be made large enough so that phase shift is not evident in the lower frequencies (no loss of bass, IOW) and it has to do this with a transistor amplifier since the manufacturer has no way of knowing what amp the preamp will be connected to. Since transistor amps have a lower input impedance (usually 1/10th that of tube amps) this forces the output coupling cap to be a rather large value.

There is no way you can make large coupling caps sound right- they introduce coloration out of inductance and other well-known artifacts of larger capacitors. IMO, direct-coupling is the way to go. This allows you to bypass a primary concern of most tube preamps. Once this is done, the circuit has only to be merely competent and it will outperform any passive or TVC made.

It comes as no surprise to me that passives and TVCs are as popular as they are. What this tells me is how poorly active line stages are at the functions I outlined above. But just because *some* are bad at it, does not mean that *all* are.

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