Andrei

Subwoofer advice

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2 hours ago, batteredhaggis said:

Lots of good advice here Andrei.

I use a REL S3 in my system, with two different Revel speakers. It has the most obvious effect with the relatively small Gems but certainly isn't wasted on the larger Studio 2s. It seems fast enough to keep up and as Matt (Manicatel) says, it's a revelation for improving the ambient side of things. In fact, pretty much everything seems to improve if you take a bit of care to dial it in. Keep it subtle being very much the idea.

I'm sure the G2 is superb but if it were my money I'd look to get two subs as the results will be even better. The 'S' series were (are?) no slouches in their own right, not too far below the performance of the Gibraltar series (at least that's what my dealer said!!)

Jamie

This is the sort of think I like to hear! 

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Hi level connection is recommended by REL for music.  Line level is for AV, and had a .1 function. 

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10 minutes ago, arturo said:

Hi level connection is recommended by REL for music.  Line level is for AV, and had a .1 function. 

True. This is to some extent REL's USP although I'm personally somewhat sceptical of the logic behind it.

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1 minute ago, MartinC said:

True. This is to some extent REL's USP although I'm personally somewhat sceptical of the logic behind it.

Is low level out the same output as connecting high level direct to speaker outputs?

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12 minutes ago, myles said:

Is low level out the same output as connecting high level direct to speaker outputs?

No. Low level is for a pre-amp output whilst high level comes from the speaker outputs on an amp. Whether the latter is a good or bad thing there will be split views on. The argument put forward by REL (and others) is along the lines that using the output of the amp allows the sonic character of the amp to be fed into the sub, such that the sound of the two will blend better. I would spin this a little differently to say that it allows distortion generated by the amp (and possibly back EMF from the main speakers) to affect the input to the sub, where it will then be amplified and output by the sub.

The flexibility to be able to use a high level connection is great but personally I struggle with the argument it is superior. I've not tried the high-level input on my own sub though as it would prevent me using the DSP I want to for integration with my mains speakers and for EQ to reduce room mode peaks. 

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30 minutes ago, MartinC said:

No. Low level is for a pre-amp output whilst high level comes from the speaker outputs on an amp. Whether the latter is a good or bad thing there will be split views on. The argument put forward by REL (and others) is along the lines that using the output of the amp allows the sonic character of the amp to be fed into the sub, such that the sound of the two will blend better. I would spin this a little differently to say that it allows distortion generated by the amp (and possibly back EMF from the main speakers) to affect the input to the sub, where it will then be amplified and output by the sub.

The flexibility to be able to use a high level connection is great but personally I struggle with the argument it is superior. I've not tried the high-level input on my own sub though as it would prevent me using the DSP I want to for integration with my mains speakers and for EQ to reduce room mode peaks. 

I think the argument does make sense if you're not using any sort of 'correction'. Other manufacturers do the same and I've always fed the Audio Physic with a high-level input. Basically, the sub gets exactly the same signal as the main speakers that way. Of course, if you're using any active system or room correction, then it is anyway pointless.

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25 minutes ago, rabski said:

I think the argument does make sense if you're not using any sort of 'correction'. Other manufacturers do the same and I've always fed the Audio Physic with a high-level input. Basically, the sub gets exactly the same signal as the main speakers that way. 

It could be argued that the line level signal in the amp is the 'same signal', sent either to the power stage in the amp and onto the main speaker's crossover and then driver, or to the subwoofer's input filter, power stage and then on to its driver. Personally I find it a little odd to think of a signal having gone through an unnecessary additional step in the stereo amp being what is viewed as the ideal reference but I understand others think differently :).

It's interesting Audio Physic have high level connections on their subs though. I didn't know that. 

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I can't personally see it making any big difference Martin, or probably no audible difference whatsoever, depending on the layout and the system. The sub is only filling in the lower frequencies that the main speakers don't, after all. I suppose I look at it as probably best practice for no other reason than that I've got the option. If nothing else, it's guaranteed that the phase is the same.

For me it's a straightforward practical matter. The way the system is laid out, I need about 7 metres of cable from the amp to the sub. The sub has near zero signal drain on speaker-level connections, so I can buy 14 metres of thin, good quality speaker cable for a lot less than I can buy 7 metres of what would need to be higher quality signal cable for a low-level feed.

In other terms, a low-level feed to the sub is going to be in most cases in parallel with the feed from pre-amp to power amp. A long length of signal cable is going to have some potential effect, and a lot of subs I've seen have only one low-level input, so it will be from one channel, not summed. Depending on the setup, in a conventional system (passive, without any room correction hardware or active crossover) you could be lumping some extra capacitance onto one channel. Minimal, and probably inconsequential at that stage in the chain, mind you.

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14 minutes ago, rabski said:

I can't personally see it making any big difference Martin, or probably no audible difference whatsoever, depending on the layout and the system. The sub is only filling in the lower frequencies that the main speakers don't, after all. I suppose I look at it as probably best practice for no other reason than that I've got the option. If nothing else, it's guaranteed that the phase is the same.

Oh, I don't see it making a bid difference either :). REL make a big deal of it though and I was just making the point that it wasn't at all obvious (to me) that high level was superior in the way they say.

I'm not sure there's really a phase related argument, due to the phase shifts from the speaker crossover, sub filter, and the fact that the sub amp may invert the signal.

14 minutes ago, rabski said:

For me it's a straightforward practical matter. The way the system is laid out, I need about 7 metres of cable from the amp to the sub. The sub has near zero signal drain on speaker-level connections, so I can buy 14 metres of thin, good quality speaker cable for a lot less than I can buy 7 metres of what would need to be higher quality signal cable for a low-level feed.

In other terms, a low-level feed to the sub is going to be in most cases in parallel with the feed from pre-amp to power amp. A long length of signal cable is going to have some potential effect, and a lot of subs I've seen have only one low-level input, so it will be from one channel, not summed. Depending on the setup, in a conventional system (passive, without any room correction hardware or active crossover) you could be lumping some extra capacitance onto one channel. Minimal, and probably inconsequential at that stage in the chain, mind you.

I'd argue that to be used with such a single input sub the signal must be a summed one, since it's actually surprisingly easy to find examples where bass notes you'd expect to be center panned actually aren't. 

On the cable front I'm doubtful any of the options you mentioned will make a significant difference, unless mains pickup becomes an issue. I'm not saying you or anyone else shouldn't use a high level connection though :). Rather just that I don't think anyone should particularly be prioritising this just because a sub is going to be used for music.

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Another vote for using twin subs. I use a pair of 400XXL BKs with my Revel Ultima Gems and one on its own has never remotely cut it. At least in my room with my rig.

It maybe more complex to get right with two but only because you have more control.  That said, I’ve heard Snoop Dog’s REL G2 and it made me realise why so much can be so wisely spent. It’s a super thing. Probably don’t need x2 of those!

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On 03/12/2019 at 00:14, tIANcI said:

I am happy with my REL T5s, got a pair for my system that consists of mainly standmount speakers (Harbeth P3ESR and Marten Duke 2). Living room not too big, a mere 10’ x 12’.

In my system the REL T5s were a good improvement. But recently I started to add tweaks. Installed the IsoAcoustic Gaia III, that tightened up the bass. I don’t feel the need for my subs atm. I am not getting lower bass or more bass but it’s more defined.

Whether you really need subs gonna depend on the music you listen to, the sort of bass you want, your room etc.

My experience with the REL is that they are great for music. It’s quality bass. Mine are just the T5, I’m sure the T7i or T9i will be even better.

Home demo? That’s the best way to know for sure.

I just purchased and am running in a pair of t/7i’s. I have them hooked to exakted Akudorics. Already sound great. Replaced a Totem Storm, much nicer.

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3 hours ago, Fester said:

I just purchased and am running in a pair of t/7i’s. I have them hooked to exakted Akudorics. Already sound great. Replaced a Totem Storm, much nicer.

I can’t get the T7i here. Dealer got the T5i or the T9i (other than the higher end models) 😢

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