newlash09

Speaker placement tricks please

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Hi sotosound 

Pmc are Not saying much :D

They only say the standard stuff like equilateral triangle and nothing to be there in line with the front baffles of the speakers inbetween the 2 speakers. 

Sheesh! That would b*gger my lounge up, then. Our TV sits between the Red 150s with its screen at a similar distance from the wall as the front baffles.

When Russell Kauffman visited, he advised me to remove some figurines from the tops of the speakers because the cabinets are "live" and the figurines would affect the sound, which they did. He didn't say "Dump the TV." however.

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Setting the speakers up so that the tweeters are 1.6 metres apart usually works for me, then move them backwards/forwards to taste.

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Super Dealer
 

Thanks a ton nopiano :)

Have just done the amcoustics calculation and I  guess Iam having room nodes at 36, 67 and 100 Hz if Iam interpreting right. 

I will be playing around with moving the speakers now and see if the cardass calculator works for me. But surprisingly it was only calculating based on room width, no mention of room length anywhere :)

If you hover the mouse over those red markers they will show you whether the mode is length, width or height based.

Now you can use the frequency generator, set  36Hz and play that frequency through your speakers , not for too long or too loudly.

If it is a length mode 1-0-0 then I would expect the tone to be much louder at the ends ( length) of your room, go through all three length, width, height .

In terms of actual placement an equilateral triangle is usually a good place to start.

Keith

Edited by PuritéAudio
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Funnily enough, and an off the cuff, completely unscientific thought, you could try putting something absorbent into or in front of one of the transmission line outlets as that's where your main problem is almost certainly coming from. Caution - I've never tried it but I can't think why some acoustic foam would hurt - just keep the levels down to start with. It's the TL that is giving a boost in out put between 27hz and around 80hz.

Edited by Tune
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Super Wammer
 

If you hover the mouse over those red markers they will show you whether the mode is length, width or height based.

Now you can use the frequency generator, set  36Hz and play that frequency through your speakers , not for too long or too loudly.

If it is a length mode 1-0-0 then I would expect the tone to be much louder at the ends ( length) of your room, go through all three length, width, height .

In terms of actual placement an equilateral triangle is usually a good place to start.

Keith

I did that for @newlash09 dimensions and get this:-

37Hz (1-0-0);  49Hz  (0-1-0);  65Hz (0-0-1); 74Hz (2-0-0); 99Hz (2-0-1)  

I think I can decode that the first 1 is the length, the second 1 the width, and the third 1 is the height.  Correct?  What is the 2, a second harmonic (74 being twice 37Hz)?  

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Super Dealer

Yes, exactly I believe it the major axial modes ( wavelengths exactly twice the length of the room ) that are the most problematic.

Keith

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Super Wammer
 

Not sure Keith if you meant a minimum of, or at least?

Would be interested in how that figure has been arrived at as being applicable to all speakers. Thinking of extremes such as Naim SBL and modern Quad ESLs.

I’m interested too as I think I’ve seen Keith explain that “within” 60cm minimises cancellation.  

Personally, I’m confident it cannot apply to dipoles, like Quad and other electrostatics, nor to those Naims, or certain Neat, Linn, Guru, and similar designs intended for wall reinforcement.  

Edited by Nopiano
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Super Dealer

Traditional loudspeakers are pulled away from walls in an attempt to cancel, to some degree a frequency which is exciting a room mode , every professional manufacturer that I am aware of recommends placing the speakers close , within 60cm of the rear wall to avoid cancellation.

Contemporary loudspeakers allow you to adjust bass output , very convenient as you can push the speakers right back, reclaim your room and still enjoy excellent sound quality.

Keith

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Super Wammer
 

Traditional loudspeakers are pulled away from walls in an attempt to cancel, to some degree a frequency which is exciting a room mode , every professional manufacturer that I am aware of recommends placing the speakers close , within 60cm of the rear wall to avoid cancellation.

Contemporary loudspeakers allow you to adjust bass output , very convenient as you can push the speakers right back, reclaim your room and still enjoy excellent sound quality.

Keith

And just to be crystal clear, Keith, is the 60cm from the rear of the cabinet or the front face?

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Super Dealer

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I’m interested too as I think I’ve seen Keith explain that “within” 60cm minimises cancellation.  

Personally, I’m confident it cannot apply to dipoles, like Quad and other electrostatics, nor to those Naims, or certain Neat, Linn, Guru, and similar designs intended for wall reinforcement.  

Absolutely right, Dipoles and omnis rely on placing away from either wall behind them, or side walls dependant on design. To get away from that analytical hifi effect I have also found most of the box speakers I have owned benefit from spacing away from boundaries to help get towards a sense of realism. If one needs to analyse the recording then closer to the boundaries helps, particularly with the new breed of monitors, but if one wants to enjoy the illusion of music than free space rules. Doesn’t necessarily do much for the looks of the room or domestic harmony, but that is just one of the compromises of making hifi sound like music as opposed to making music sound like hifi.

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Super Dealer

Dipoles are often placed away from walls because they kick out as much energy ( out of phase I believe) from the back as they do from the front, I have heard some with broadband absorption behind , does it matter where you place an omni, they are designed to spray sound  360° aren’t they?

Keith

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Not with TL's  Keith, which are more directional in the bottom octaves because of the arrangement. They are almost as close as you can get to a direct opposite of a dipole in domestic loudspeaker design.

I know it sounds daft but just try with some padded cardboard blocking one of the TL's outputs - then both. The tuning of a TL is all down to the length of the line and the absorbtion materials used inside.

The materials used on the walls of the TL will have no real impact on the bass hence being able to lower the bass response without affecting other areas. It also helps to avoid resonances. The TL which outputs at the bottom of your speakers is outputting and boosting the bottom octave or so - where you have a problem. I would say personally, and this is not an attack , you have bought a loudspeaker that is unsuited to your room. You really needed something that had an f3 at around 45hz and was ported as opposed to a TL so that it rolled off more quickly.

However, it will take half an hour to experiment with taping up and, if nothing else I would be interested. What you are doing is raising that f3 point above the 27hz or whatever they are claiming, which means you are reducing the output at the first and second frequencies where you have an issue. Ideally you would cut the TL higher up so that it resonated less and its natural roll off was higher. Try it.The padded cardboard and tape. What have you got to lose?

Edited by Tune

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Super Dealer

Bass below 80Hz is omnidirectional, it cant be localised.

Keith

Edited by PuritéAudio

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Dependant on drive unit and baffle size Keith - have you ever wondered why main monitors are soffit mounted in most studio setups?

TL's have less rear radiation at low frequencies than the designs talked about.

Edited by Tune

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