vintageaxeman

Question re: Digital outputs from CD players....

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@uzzy I don’t think anyone is doubting that a CD players digital output will be a minimum of 16/44. The question is whether CD players, that feature upsampling, output the upsampled signal through their digital outputs as well as their analogue outputs.

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10 minutes ago, Blackmetalboon said:

@uzzy I don’t think anyone is doubting that a CD players digital output will be a minimum of 16/44. The question is whether CD players, that feature upsampling, output the upsampled signal through their digital outputs as well as their analogue outputs.

Very true but the original question was directed at providing a 44.1khz output (which of course would be vital if using old DACS from yesteryear).

My question concerns the digital output socket of such players. Arcam, Astin Trew, etc, etc.

I had always been under the assumption that ALL CD players put out a 44.1kHz signal through their digital output socket. 

Am I wrong?

The confusion of course does arise due to the SPDIF being used for nearly all digital interfaces now. 

As I understand it whilst cd players can provide a higher sampling rate via SPDIF, most provide the standard black box (or if they do not then have the provision to provide red box). 

Of course in essence I think (but could be wrong) most modern DACs accept signals up to 96khz sampling rate (and some higher).  Even the fiver DAC I bought for my TV accepts from 44.1khz to 96khz.

I am no techy so my immediate incorrect assumption was as SPDIF was devised by Sony and Phillips for CD output that it was a standard - it is of course used by everyone to denote a digital interface and also used for video output as well as surround sound and others. I believe most if not all SACD players only output stereo to the SPDIF at the usual 44.1khz  or 48khz as well.  

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Super Wammer
10 hours ago, Blackmetalboon said:

@uzzy I don’t think anyone is doubting that a CD players digital output will be a minimum of 16/44. The question is whether CD players, that feature upsampling, output the upsampled signal through their digital outputs as well as their analogue outputs.

That’s the question, in a nutshell! Why couldn’t I have put it like that instead of using a thousand words?! :-)

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Super Wammer
10 hours ago, uzzy said:

Very true but the original question was directed at providing a 44.1khz output (which of course would be vital if using old DACS from yesteryear).

My question concerns the digital output socket of such players. Arcam, Astin Trew, etc, etc.

I had always been under the assumption that ALL CD players put out a 44.1kHz signal through their digital output socket. 

Am I wrong?

The confusion of course does arise due to the SPDIF being used for nearly all digital interfaces now. 

As I understand it whilst cd players can provide a higher sampling rate via SPDIF, most provide the standard black box (or if they do not then have the provision to provide red box). 

Of course in essence I think (but could be wrong) most modern DACs accept signals up to 96khz sampling rate (and some higher).  Even the fiver DAC I bought for my TV accepts from 44.1khz to 96khz.

I am no techy so my immediate incorrect assumption was as SPDIF was devised by Sony and Phillips for CD output that it was a standard - it is of course used by everyone to denote a digital interface and also used for video output as well as surround sound and others. I believe most if not all SACD players only output stereo to the SPDIF at the usual 44.1khz  or 48khz as well.  

Actually Uzzy, I explained it confusingly! My question was as Blackmetalboon succinctly put it!

It seems a waste of effort for a manufacturer to design an upsampling cd player, if the upsampling feature only applies when the upsampled signal is fed to the analogue stage through the internal DAC.  Why not send the upsampled digital signal to the digital output socket too?

I want to know if any cd players or transports feature an upsampled signal through their digital output socket.

I wondered if it I could use a player or transport with its upsampled 96/24 or 192/24 digital signal to connect directly to a NON upsampling external DAC which could accept the higher rate signals and therefore give me the benefits of that.

For example a Naim N-Dac will accept up to 384/32 I think, but it won’t upsample.

Anyone else chip in?

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36 minutes ago, vintageaxeman said:

Actually Uzzy, I explained it confusingly! My question was as Blackmetalboon succinctly put it!

It seems a waste of effort for a manufacturer to design an upsampling cd player, if the upsampling feature only applies when the upsampled signal is fed to the analogue stage through the internal DAC.  Why not send the upsampled digital signal to the digital output socket too?

I want to know if any cd players or transports feature an upsampled signal through their digital output socket.

I wondered if it I could use a player or transport with its upsampled 96/24 or 192/24 digital signal to connect directly to a NON upsampling external DAC which could accept the higher rate signals and therefore give me the benefits of that.

For example a Naim N-Dac will accept up to 384/32 I think, but it won’t upsample.

Anyone else chip in?

The CEC TL2 N does according to this recent review:

http://highfidelity.pl/@main-939&lang=en

It seems to cost about 6000 euros though, but at least it shows that such a beast can exist.

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Super Wammer
1 hour ago, vintageaxeman said:

I wondered if it I could use a player or transport with its upsampled 96/24 or 192/24 digital signal to connect directly to a NON upsampling external DAC which could accept the higher rate signals and therefore give me the benefits of that.

It’s an interesting question, and now I’m thinking that the calibre of player likely to offer this will already have a great DAC, so is unlikely to be improved by an external one. 

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My much-loved Cambridge Audio 740C upsamples everything (both CDs from the transport and all digital inputs) to 384kHz for the main analogue output. Through the menu options it's possible to set the digital outputs to either pass-through exactly what came in, or to upsample 48 / 96/192 kHz (but not the full-fat 384). You can also select 16, 20 or 24-bit and alter the dither (although as I tend to dither enough myself I've not tried that) :D

Sophisticated bits of kit these budget Cambridge players... Wanna buy it? :whistle:

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Super Wammer
1 hour ago, Jules_S said:

My much-loved Cambridge Audio 740C upsamples everything (both CDs from the transport and all digital inputs) to 384kHz for the main analogue output. Through the menu options it's possible to set the digital outputs to either pass-through exactly what came in, or to upsample 48 / 96/192 kHz (but not the full-fat 384). You can also select 16, 20 or 24-bit and alter the dither (although as I tend to dither enough myself I've not tried that) :D

Sophisticated bits of kit these budget Cambridge players... Wanna buy it? :whistle:

Mom... interesting!

Edited by vintageaxeman

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Most sigma delta DACs sample up to a predetermined optimal data rate. PS Audio uses an FPGA to sample up to 10 times DSD. Chord also recommend you put your data into them without manipulation and allow the Chord DAC to do what it does best. So there is little point in outputting at anything other than the native frequency of your CD.

If there is something to be gained like a NOS DAC then you can buy devices that sit between player and DAC that will do this. I stream, and sample up to the maximum multiple PCM rate of my streamer. So 44.1 reaches my streamer at 176, 48 would arrive at 192. For me it is because I like to see the big numbers, and I use Roon DSP which is pretty good. But is it better?

https://wyred4sound.com/products/digital-converters/remedy-reclocker

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On 15/09/2019 at 11:26, Jules_S said:

My much-loved Cambridge Audio 740C upsamples everything (both CDs from the transport and all digital inputs) to 384kHz for the main analogue output. Through the menu options it's possible to set the digital outputs to either pass-through exactly what came in, or to upsample 48 / 96/192 kHz (but not the full-fat 384). You can also select 16, 20 or 24-bit and alter the dither (although as I tend to dither enough myself I've not tried that) :D

Sophisticated bits of kit these budget Cambridge players... Wanna buy it? :whistle:

Just reading through and you beat me to it.. Same up sampling with CA 840C CD player. But like I mentioned in another thread my digital board is fried on my 840C. Would've been interesting to try with an external DAC.

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