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2 minutes ago, TheFlash said:

Yes, unfortunately that's the way leaving the EU club works. First you settle your debts and we agree in principle whether and how we might let you have some sort of associate membership for our mutual benefit.

As far as I understand it, this is not true. We could leave the EU as per the referendum exam question but stay in the SIngle Market like Norway has.

It's not impossible to leave, but the nature of the red lines drawn by May led to the backstop in order to protect both the integrity of the Single Market and the Good Friday Agreement. We have asked for our cake and to eat it. We want to leave the golf club, stop paying our fees, but keep playing golf at all the courses we used to play on.

Boris Johnson said two ridiculous, desperate, pathetic things last night. Firstly he accused those voting against leaving wit hNo Deal of pulling the legs out from under his negotiating position: complete tosh; he simply doesn't have one. He's playing poker, seeing who blinks first as the stakes go up rather than actually negotiating a deal.

Secondly, he said those same folk were stopping him from getting "the deal we want". What "deal we want"!? He hasn't spelled out what we want because he can't! In particular, he has offered no alternative to the backstop. That's because the only alternative is to stay in the Single Market.

It really does beggar belief.

That is a pretty fair assessment of the situation,

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1 minute ago, CnoEvil said:

If you take the view that we are no more than an EU state ie. That the power is all in Brussels, how do you explain what Parliament is doing ATM.

We are a Sovereign Country, with the ability to determine our own destiny. If we could only agree on what that should be.

Parliament is a complete and utter shambles and could not run a bath let alone a country.  Perhaps we would be better as an EU state with this bunch of clowns in charge.

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I think this was highlighted before - but if you really want to have insight into No Deal, Ivan Rogers blog is worth a read.

One of the things he says is:

"The central problem with ‘no deal’ is that it is being heavily (mis)sold as providing certainty, finality – a ‘clean break’ – when it would manifestly do nothing of the sort".

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/09/ivan-rogers-the-realities-of-a-no-deal-brexit/amp/

Edited by CnoEvil
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1 hour ago, Fourlegs said:

Ok, well I am stupid then and so are most of my friends and clients.

I see you move in brexit voting circles...

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51 minutes ago, Fourlegs said:

and you see this is the problem. There is a huge gulf between people like you and me because we also think you are misinformed and misguided and that gulf between us means that we end up at opposite ends of the room just hurling insults when what we need to be doing is finding a way forward. And I also accept that is difficult because TM tried to please everyone and ended up pleasing no one.

The gulf is between those of an authoritarian disposition, and those who are not...those who can recognise knowledge and experience in expressed pronouncements and those who can not...those who are able to extrapolate events, and those who accept unbelivable forecasts by those with vested interests...those who can excercise scepticism and recognise when political or financial opportunity links hands with mendacity, and sets off down the road like the pied piper of brexit.

You have either been played, have a dog in the fight, or are a deeply unpleasant and destrucive individual.

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41 minutes ago, AntA said:

Parliament is a complete and utter shambles and could not run a bath let alone a country.  Perhaps we would be better as an EU state with this bunch of clowns in charge.

I have to confess that, from the eyes of this pesky EU migrant from Southern Europe, I do agree that the British Parliament and political system is a bit baffling...

In Portugal where I come from there's a modern Constitution (unlike the US's), a Constitutional Court made up of independent judges and a President that has scrutiny duties and powers and can dissolve Parliament in shambolic situations such as the one we are living at the moment in the UK.

Here there's a Constitution that is but a vague recolection of past rulings and mostly outdated traditions, a Queen with absolutely no powers, a winner takes all system and a Parliament that looks and sounds like a medieval fair.

:sos:

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2 minutes ago, tuga said:

I have to confess that, from the eyes of this pesky EU migrant from Southern Europe, I do agree that the British Parliament and political system is a bit baffling...

In Portugal where I come from there's a modern Constitution (unlike the US's), a Constitutional Court made up of independent judges and a President that has scrutiny duties and powers and can dissolve Parliament in shambolic situations such as the one we are living at the moment in the UK.

Here there's a Constitution that is but a vague recolection of past rulings and mostly outdated traditions, a Queen with absolutely no powers, a winner takes all system and a Parliament that looks and sounds like a medieval fair.

:sos:

Seems a fair assessment.

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The situation is somewhat like Scotland having  a devolved government from Westminster, the UK is devolved government from the EU. Both want to be independent and are being thwarted by the controlling entities in both cases. 

Edited by mr.me

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Michael Gove has pulled plans to publish a “watered down” version of the government’s Operation Yellowhammer no-deal Brexit contingency plans, after ministers decreed that the findings would still alarm the public.

Snippet taken from the FT. Now we get scaremongering from the Leave side? Preposterous!!! :off:

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20 minutes ago, mr.me said:

The situation is somewhat like Scotland having  a devolved government from Westminster, the UK is devolved government from the EU. Both want to be independent and are being thwarted by the controlling entities in both cases. 

That is not a fair characterisation of the relationship between the UK and the EU at all. There is an easily digestible explanation here:

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/the-european-union-the-institutional-system-explained/

TL;DR:

"The European Union is ultimately a collective enterprise of sovereign states."

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2 minutes ago, tuga said:

Michael Gove has pulled plans to publish a “watered down” version of the government’s Operation Yellowhammer no-deal Brexit contingency plans, after ministers decreed that the findings would still alarm the public.

Snippet taken from the FT. Now we get scaremongering from the Leave side? Preposterous!!! :off:

What a poisonous little oik he is. Truly a wank stain on the underwear of humanity. 

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Super Wammer
15 hours ago, Sgt Pepper said:

But they had a mandate to represent the people.

And they're delivering on that mandate.  The people did not vote to leave without a deal.  They voted for a fantasy that can't be delivered, so MPs with conviction are trying to make it less bad.  They're not trying to stop it, they're trying to make it closer to what people thought they were voting for.

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Super Wammer
28 minutes ago, mr.me said:

The situation is somewhat like Scotland having  a devolved government from Westminster, the UK is devolved government from the EU. Both want to be independent and are being thwarted by the controlling entities in both cases. 

I have been in and/or through, in the past few weeks, Belgium, France, Germany, Austria, Slovakia and Hungary. They are all proud countries, proud of their culture, language etc and also of their independence. Don't forget that one of these Slovakia was part of Czechoslovakia until the 90's and was, along with Hungary, under the yoke of the USSR. You would think they would want nothing to do with supra-state (not superstate) structures like the EU but they know which side their bread is buttered on. Some of the LeaveAtAnyPrice folk here talk about the EU as if it is the Soviet Union! They really should get out (of the country) more.

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Super Wammer
2 minutes ago, sunbeamgls said:

And they're delivering on that mandate.  The people did not vote to leave without a deal.  They voted for a fantasy that can't be delivered, so MPs with conviction are trying to make it less bad.  They're not trying to stop it, they're trying to make it closer to what people thought they were voting for.

This. Excellent summary.

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Super Wammer
41 minutes ago, mr.me said:

The situation is somewhat like Scotland having  a devolved government from Westminster, the UK is devolved government from the EU. Both want to be independent and are being thwarted by the controlling entities in both cases. 

I forgot to correct you: Scotland does not "want to be independent". It voted by a substantial margin to Remain. How sensible!

1037207988_ScreenShot2019-09-04at13_12_15.png.70438d32f8cb3c9ecd64f2c8dfde985c.png

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