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Dac's Dac's Dac's...... What is it with Dac's??..

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23 minutes ago, Nopiano said:

I’m not sure any exits, does it?  Ultimately, music is an art, and art doesn’t lend itself to scientific analysis too well.  In a typical home system, there are countless variables, the largest of which is probably the room itself.  One can measure each component or room in isolation, but the overall result is still not entirely predictable.  With digital correction much more readily available these days we have arguably steeped a little closer to achieving ‘perfection’. 

This rather charming old article is a good reminder that these debates aren’t new!  http://www.keith-snook.info/wireless-world-magazine/Wireless-World-1977/Audible amplifier distortion is not a mystery.pdf

Hi,

Excellent reference to the past. The last statement in the document is quite apt :

"Even in the wiring of electric-bell circuits, the use of Litz wire is claimed to give "tintinabular superiority". How silly can we get? All this sort of thing, which seems to be encouraged by some of the hi-fi magazines, for whom it no doubt provides easy material for filling their pages, is surely not good for the future of the audio industry, being liable to bring it to a state of disrepute with intelligent people."

Sadly, that sort of thing was good for the hifi industry, as it made a lot of people a lot of money from the OCD of the believers. No offence to those impacted. :D

Regards,

Shadders.

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What science can do is to objectively assess things like what people prefer, by means of double-blind and level matched listening comparisons. One thing to be careful of though is to not take published average findings and to then assume everyone's individual preferences align with this average. So whilst it might be true to say that most people prefer an in-room response that is highest at low frequencies, it doesn't mean everyone does.

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, Nopiano said:

I’m not sure any exits, does it?  Ultimately, music is an art, and art doesn’t lend itself to scientific analysis too well.  In a typical home system, there are countless variables, the largest of which is probably the room itself.  One can measure each component or room in isolation, but the overall result is still not entirely predictable.  With digital correction much more readily available these days we have arguably steeped a little closer to achieving ‘perfection’. 

This rather charming old article is a good reminder that these debates aren’t new!  http://www.keith-snook.info/wireless-world-magazine/Wireless-World-1977/Audible amplifier distortion is not a mystery.pdf

DSP is a still a form of tone control whether we like it or not even when done in the digital domain. Personally I think the popularisation of removing tone controls from HIFI was a brilliant idea to shift more boxes. EQ when used wisely yields  great results.

As a music producer if I move to a new location or room, I EQ my setup to better hear into the mix or to balance things out. The Hi Fi world got obsessed with things that mattered very little, and left out what really mattered, listening. It doesn't really matter by what means realistic or live like sound is achieved. 

Many producers and music engineers are human and get the balance of their mixes wrong from time to time even after many years of mastering music. Listening is as much an art form as producing music is.  An art form can't be measured in it's entirety, neither should choosing how we listen be.  Measurements should be part of a means to an end.

Edited by Nativebon
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4 hours ago, Tune said:

Why? Why no scientifically accepted testing model?

That's the bit I don't get. People use science to sell their products but will not allow an effective scientific verification of the claimed benefits.

Because no one has been able to do statistically valid, double blind testing in audio, outside of a University. And then what you do is create an artifical environment to get rid of  the visual clue problem. This effect also exists for those who expect to hear no difference and do so, even if there is a difference.

You beat me to it, Shadders.  Here you can get it as a ‘clean’ pdf with no adverts. 

https://linearaudio.net/sites/linearaudio.net/files/volume1bp.pdf

Thanks for that reference there is also a talk by him at the Burning Amp talks in the US where he puts this into context. He accepted what some were saying about feedback and then developed measurements for it and found that as feedback went up it actually got to a point where it made things better and finally he developed very large feedback loops which have been incorporated into the nCore amplifer. Glad to see that you are all on board with control loop theory as most audio engineers get nervous with it but good to see Wammers have no problem with it. :geek:

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2 hours ago, Tony_J said:

If what you meant is that your ears are good for assessing a preference or for making a comparison, then I would wholeheartedly agree with you; the concepts of "better/worse", "sharper/smoother",...etc. are things that ultimately only your ears can tell you, because your personal response to that sound is just that - personal. But that doesn't mean your ears are measurement tools.

No but they are quite good at telling you whether you like a sound or whether you think it is close to the real thing.

Measurements are substitutes for this process and some are awful at telling us what sounds good or bad. Just pick on THD and look how complex that can get when being defined and despite that what we do is squirt one frequency into an amp and compare it with what come out. Is that representative of complex music? Maybe it is and maybe it is just something easy to measure.

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1 hour ago, Nopiano said:

I’m not sure any exits, does it?  Ultimately, music is an art, and art doesn’t lend itself to scientific analysis too well.  In a typical home system, there are countless variables, the largest of which is probably the room itself.  One can measure each component or room in isolation, but the overall result is still not entirely predictable.  With digital correction much more readily available these days we have arguably steeped a little closer to achieving ‘perfection’. 

This rather charming old article is a good reminder that these debates aren’t new!  http://www.keith-snook.info/wireless-world-magazine/Wireless-World-1977/Audible amplifier distortion is not a mystery.pdf

Charming is one word for it. Yes some people have not advanced in nigh on 50 years. Still stuck in the Wireless World, Wiilamson paper on THD, noise and frequency response being king. Bring back the wind-up gramaphone.

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Posted (edited)

Hey I'm not picking a fight. I've bought audio like all of you have and owned some that would have measured appallingly. It's a subjective issue.

That's why I'm objecting to someone standing in a teaching room setting, trying to explain technically why his box of tricks should sound better. 

Amplifiers do the job of hifi amp (ie they increase the gain of a line level signal without adding any artefacts), or they add artefacts deliberately and selectively to enhance the subjective impression of live sound for some (many valve pres being a good example of this).

You cannot have it both ways. Putzy is using an objective presentation to suggest that his method of achieving the former in amplifier design is inherently superior to other variants for objective reasons where as the result will be un distinguishable under controlled conditions which no one uses for test purposes.

It's a bit like Trump professing he's the chosen one and no one questioning it to me.

If you want to get away from the objective and accept this is subjective (and that the listener is 50% of the equation at least), then test for that objectively, then presentations such as Putzy's might have some gravitas rather than the faint whiff of BS.

Edited by Tune

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23 minutes ago, Nativebon said:

DSP is a still a form of tone control whether we like it or not even when done in the digital domain. Personally I think the popularisation of removing tone controls from HIFI was a brilliant idea to shift more boxes. EQ when used wisely yields  great results.

Hi,

Yes - there have been too many wheezes by the hifi industry leading us to believe all sorts of things.

  • We have local feedback is better than global feedback, and less is good.
  • We have, too much global feedback is bad.
  • We now have, even more feedback is good.

All along the way, the subjective theories promulgate into the audiophile world, and they are believed.

Will the "even more feedback is better" be used in class A/B amplifiers in the future, as it will become audio folklore ? :D

Regards,

Shadders.

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Super Wammer
25 minutes ago, Tune said:

"Tell a lie enough times and it becomes an accepted truth"

. . . . often attributed to the Nazi Joseph Goebbels.

I bet he doesn’t come up in HiFi forums very often. 

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I was aware Fourlegs - I imagine if he were alive today he'd either be in drag and call himself Kellyanne or in high end digital audio somewhere.

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Super Wammer
2 hours ago, Fourlegs said:

. . . . often attributed to the Nazi Joseph Goebbels.

I bet he doesn’t come up in HiFi forums very often. 

Go easy on the guy. Having to go through your school life being called Gobbles must make a man quite angry with the world.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, TheFlash said:

Go easy on the guy. Having to go through your school life being called Gobbles must make a man quite angry with the world.

I guess it depends what you want to be known for in those formative years. Could help with School Masters...

Now I do suspect that this is the first time that pedophilia has been mentioned in a dac thread.

Edited by Tune

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