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Iceman 16

Does rfi makes a system sound brighter?

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Super Wammer
9 minutes ago, Shadders said:

Hi,

Please see :

Regards,

Shadders.

My apologies Shadders, I missed your earlier response. I wanted to confirm that your designing and building of amplifiers for other people was not a commercial activity and you've confirmed it is not.

As we were then!

Nigel

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2 minutes ago, TheFlash said:

My apologies Shadders, I missed your earlier response. I wanted to confirm that your designing and building of amplifiers for other people was not a commercial activity and you've confirmed it is not.

As we were then!

Nigel

Hi,

I would never build for commercial - as i do not have the requisite bullshitting skills for the audiophools. I can only engineer. Sorry.

:cool:

Regards,

Shadders.

  • Haha 1

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Super Wammer
2 minutes ago, Shadders said:

Hi,

I would never build for commercial - as i do not have the requisite bullshitting skills for the audiophools. I can only engineer. Sorry.

:cool:

Regards,

Shadders.

As I said: as we were.

Oh dear, you poor self-deluded thing.

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Moderator
18 minutes ago, Shadders said:

Hi,

I would never build for commercial - as i do not have the requisite bullshitting skills for the audiophools. I can only engineer. Sorry.

:cool:

Regards,

Shadders.

Oddly enough the main designer of the Chord DAC, Rob Watts, is also an engineer and hates BS but arrives at an entirely different conclusion to you. All he has done is measure, listen,  design, build and refine. He is a consultant, so is not really an employee and has built digital chips for major computer companies. So as a digital engineer who measures, tests and carries out double-blind tests, maybe he can shine a light on this issue. He has if you look.

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Posted (edited)

I am not convinced that the effect / improvements are necessarily caused by normally occuring "RFI".  My problem is what appears to be apparent repeatability of the phenomenon. RFI of any consequence typically comes from a thing, and would often have a characteristic signature. It is rarely an amorphous background hash, and even if it was, it would be stronger in some areas than others, and probably vary during the working day. These things are regulated an policed, with the possible exception of power line ethernet extenders.

Edited by dave

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1 minute ago, George 47 said:

Oddly enough the main designer of the Chord DAC, Rob Watts, is also an engineer and hates BS but arrives at an entirely different conclusion to you. All he has done is measure, listen,  design, build and refine. He is a consultant, so is not really an employee and has built digital chips for major computer companies. So as a digital engineer who measures, tests and carries out double-blind tests, maybe he can shine a light on this issue. He has if you look.

Hi,

I get that you can refine a design, but it is the "hifi speak" that i cannot be a part of. What i like, someone else may not like.

You have to cultivate the customers, and speak their language - and i would just tie myself up in knots in trying to remember which adjective means what sound, and all the combinations therein. Or trying to impart that the latest refinement introduces a new improved sound by accentuating or diminishing something or other.

Regards,

Shadders.

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Moderator
1 minute ago, Shadders said:

Hi,

I get that you can refine a design, but it is the "hifi speak" that i cannot be a part of. What i like, someone else may not like.

You have to cultivate the customers, and speak their language - and i would just tie myself up in knots in trying to remember which adjective means what sound, and all the combinations therein. Or trying to impart that the latest refinement introduces a new improved sound by accentuating or diminishing something or other.

Regards,

Shadders.

You should meet and talk to Rob Watts. An engineer...yes....a BS salesman.....not really. I suspect if you design chips for Hewlett Packard they may cotton on to BS merchants as opposed to a good engineer. 

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8 minutes ago, Shadders said:

You have to cultivate the customers, and speak their language - and i would just tie myself up in knots in trying to remember which adjective means what sound, and all the combinations therein. Or trying to impart that the latest refinement introduces a new improved sound by accentuating or diminishing something or other.

i suppose not patronising them and calling them Audiophools would be a good start......and certainly not the best way to win friends and influence people.

  • Haha 2

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4 hours ago, Shadders said:

Hi,

I am not willing to be part of a sighted test where the product technical details are not available, as i explained.

If i design and build an amplifier - i present the technical capability etc. so people are aware of what they are getting.

i do not hear differences in cables - i see no reason to attempt to hear differences with my ears which are essentially flawed devices. Every test and measurement device can exceed human hearing. So i would always use technical analysis for any assessment of a product.

Regards,

Shadders.

Interesting. I can think of a number of well-respected audio designers who have stated that in their view measurements are certainly a useful tool, but don't in themselves provide the whole story. 

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, CnoEvil said:

i suppose not patronising them and calling them Audiophools would be a good start......and certainly not the best way to win friends and influence people.

Hi,

You have to admit, you are all dopey b*st*rds really. :D

Recently, someone bought a soundbar and has a hifi (amp, floorstanders) and prefers the convenience of a soundbar. On a hifi site, this would be sacrilege.

How much of the changes heard are actually heard ?. No one has yet proved cables sound different using DBT etc. For the past 35 years we have special cables - not once has this debate ever been resolved that cables make a difference.

Would you design and build your own hifi equipment and sell to a friend at full price ?

Would you state to your friend "hifi speak" to compete with another manufacturer ? knowing that the cost to manufacturer is very small compared to the asking price, and if they are willing to spend that amount on hifi with the competition, it might as well be you ?

Are you going to tell your friend the truth about it - that you don't hear the veils being lifted, or the mid range having more dynamism and detail etc. is just marketing speak ?

If i were to sell to people, i think you know what you are getting as being the honest truth about hifi.

Regards,

Shadders.

Edited by Shadders
Grammar

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Dealer
30 minutes ago, dave said:

I am not convinced that the effect / improvements are necessarily caused by normally occuring "RFI".  My problem is what appears to be apparent repeatability of the phenomenon. RFI of any consequence typically comes from a thing, and would often have a characteristic signature. It is rarely an amorphous background hash, and even if it was, it would be stronger in some areas than others, and probably vary during the working day. These things are regulated an policed, with the possible exception of power line ethernet extenders.

You rarely get to hear the actual thing with its own RF sound, so you do not hear bleeps or crackles or tones. You do not, by and large, hear a background hiss or other noise from it. The music mostly just gets distorted by the RFI. In my experience this is characterised by a brittleness or false detail and which masks the true details in the music. The bass can often be more woolly and the mids will be less distinct.

Sure there are individual sources such as routers or dect phones or mobile phones but there is also plenty of RFI 'mush' around these days from switched power supplies or LED lights or dimmers or dozens of other sources. Much of it is in the mains and I for one have not read anything in this thread that makes me feel confident that our kit is fully isolated from that source.

These things are regulated and policed but I doubt that the regulations extend to making sure there is no danger of the RFI affecting our hifi, more likely it is to make sure that other stuff still functions or that we don't fry ourselves with RF. In other words pretty basic stuff compared to the sensitivity of the circuits inside many components. And how do you know that the guy next door hasn't bought a load of cheap unregulated Chinese stuff from ebay or elsewhere?

If you are not convinced then pop over onto Head-Fi and browse the various threads that deal with RFI issues. Read what Rob Watts says and then ask him to clarify if you still do not get it. He is very approachable on his blog thread and has the curious mix of technical knowledge and huge experience but also a desire to find the best quality reproduction by listening to it as well as measuring.

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54 minutes ago, Shadders said:

Hi,

I would never build for commercial - as i do not have the requisite bullshitting skills for the audiophools. I can only engineer. Sorry.

:cool:

Regards,

Shadders.

Personally I suspect you'd probably score quite decently on the bullshit front.

From your attitude though I'd be inclined to think you lack the intellectual curiosity to develop potentially commercially viable products, so maybe best stick to the kitchen table after all.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Shadders said:

Hi,

You have to admit, you are all dopey b*st*rds really. :D

Recently, someone bought a soundbar and has a hifi (amp, floorstanders) and prefers the convenience of a soundbar. On a hifi site, this would be sacrilege.

How much of the changes heard are actually heard ?. No one has yet to prove cables sound different using DBT etc. For the past 35 years we have special cables - not once has this debate ever been resolved that cables make a difference.

Would you design and build your own hifi equipment and sell to a friend at full price ?

Would you state to your friend "hifi speak" to compete with another manufacturer ? knowing that the cost to manufacturer is very small compared to the asking price, and if they are willing to spend that amount on hifi with the competition, it might as well be you ?

Are you going to tell your friend the truth about it - that you don't hear the veils being lifted, or the mid range having more dynamism and detail etc. is just marketing speak ?

If i were to sell to people, i think you know what you are getting as being the honest truth about hifi.

Yup, I'm a Dopey B*st*rd....but a DB that's been into Hifi for 45 years. If you want my attention, don't become supercilious.....and be prepared to listen and even change your mind. You come across as immovable.....but usually annoyingly polite - if arrogant.

Edited by CnoEvil

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1 minute ago, notevenclose said:

Personally I suspect you'd probably score quite decently on the bullshit front.

From your attitude though I'd be inclined to think you lack the intellectual curiosity to develop potentially commercially viable products, so maybe best stick to the kitchen table after all.

Hi,

Everything i have said, or suggested, is based on science/engineering. I have NEVER made any statement that is "hifi speak". Why ? I just don't hear it. I can only present the engineering facts. That, is not bullshit.

Where is the chart of hifi terms and actual technical capability of a piece of equipment ?. It does not exist - it is all subjective.

What do you think people are doing to engineer their product in correlation with hifi terms ?. There is no rule book. Nothing written down. So, a hifi company may say that the introduction of a cascode transistor in the VAS will remove the high frequency harshness. Does it remove the high frequency harshness (to the ear) - as it will reduce the THD at higher frequencies. Who knows - but you may hear a change and agree with the marketing blurb.

Regards,

Shadders.

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