Turk 182

measurements - do they really matter that much ?

Recommended Posts

5 hours ago, Turk 182 said:

hi benecat

as stated a number of times i currently do not have a system - true.

i am in the process of gathering information regarding a future purchase - i thought a forum would be a good place to ask ?!

my previous system was sold 3 years ago - it consisted of a musical fidelity x ray cd player, the matching xa1 amp and some b&w 601 s2 speakers.

this replaced a technics midi system and was bought mainly on how it looked to be honest - the fact it sounded much better than my technics system came as no surprise !

this system served me well for years but because hifi is not my main interest in life chopping and changing kit is not something i do or could be bothered to do to be honest...

the system was sold because i needed cash and listening to music took a back seat as such - other priorities in life etc so i had a lack of time to actually sit down and listen...

i have asked questions on future system choices in other threads - if you read through my questions you will see this regarding yamaha kit to the avi dm12's...

as for "constructive" views my technical knowledge is limited - i like listening to music not taking kit apart, measuring etc so i'm not sure what you want me to add ?

i gave my view on the audio desk treatment in my thread yesterday. i tried it and found that it worked - its not my fault a few members get angry at me stating this experience.

overall this is a public forum and any body can post threads and reply to subjects as long they are not insulting others - the moderators soon cut that out anyway.

so feel free to ignore my threads if you wish - just like i have ignored other threads that i have nothing "constructive" to add to or are of no interest to me.

overall its only a hifi forum - not something to take so seriously.

You contradict yourself with this comment ....... overall its only a hifi forum - not something to take so seriously ......So  if you do not take it seriously then why not just go to Pc world or somewhere you can go and  buy a all in one hifi thats cheap instead of messing around a Hifi forum where people talk about serious things because it's there hobby so measurement in Hifi matter to some people here  but not all as music is the most important part of this hobby .

with your comments it's going to upset some people but if your genuine about buying a good hifi then ask away no problem with that just think about what your writing  :)  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Moderator
55 minutes ago, MartinC said:

I bet that's most members of the forum then :D.

I have a 12" piece of plastic but I do not use it as a rule. :D

(I know the old ones are the best but as we are into recycling).

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, MartinC said:

I bet that's most members of the forum then :D.

In the UK, where we have a monarchy, that's all of us!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Sotosound said:

Some basic measurements might affect my choices. For instance, amplifier power, speaker sensitivity and speaker bass response. These don't tell a full story, however.

In the end, I also take advice from my dealer and from my ears, and these pieces of advice often end up overruling any published measurements.

Important things for me are musicality and emotional communication, and I'm not sure that either of these can easily be measured using technical means.

There are forum members who'll take measurements of their room so as to apply acoustic treatments or reposition their speakers so as to make it a better listening room.

There are forum members who'll just use their ears to achieve this.

There are forum members who don't have the scope to change their room.

There are members who will scoff when I describe how I work and there are others who will support how I work.

If you find yourself at the opposite pole to another member then that's where you're at and no amount of debate is likely to change that.

This is a broad church and there's room for everyone, but there are are also some people with very clear and very firmly held opinions in various directions, so it might come down to choosing what feels right to you from all of the shared advice.

And it might also come down to not getting too troubled by a firmly held opposing view.

thanks for this post - some wise words.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Blacksabbath25 said:

You contradict yourself with this comment ....... overall its only a hifi forum - not something to take so seriously ......So  if you do not take it seriously then why not just go to Pc world or somewhere you can go and  buy a all in one hifi thats cheap instead of messing around a Hifi forum where people talk about serious things because it's there hobby so measurement in Hifi matter to some people here  but not all as music is the most important part of this hobby .

with your comments it's going to upset some people but if your genuine about buying a good hifi then ask away no problem with that just think about what your writing  :)  

hi blacksabbath25

i was referring to one particular poster who quite clearly had an axe to grind with me hence my comment.

we have now blocked each other so its the end of the matter as far as i'm concerned...once again its only a forum.

i will (hopefully) have a budget of £3000+ soon hence a cheapo system from pc world will not cut it - my old system cost £1500 - the new one will have to beat it...

i have some active speakers to test coming soon anyway. active speakers chosen after reading advice from this forum - something i had not considered before.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Turk 182 said:

I  will (hopefully) have a budget of £3000+ soon hence a cheapo system from pc world will not cut it - my old system cost £1500 - the new one will have to beat it...

i have some active speakers to test coming soon anyway. active speakers chosen after reading advice from this forum - something i had not considered before.

You could do a lot worse than a Gato DIA 250S with streaming module (open box/ex-dem) with Kef LS50s.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Moderator

The actual word 'measurement' is a red herring to an extent, because people are interpreting it in different ways. Are we talking about things like THD and in-room response, or are we talking about impedance matching and getting cartridge loading correct?

If I was (I'm not) looking for new speakers, I'd certainly look at some measurements: not least, the impedance curve (not just the 'nominal impedance') and the efficiency. Those two won't tell me how a speaker 'sounds', but will tell me whether it would be a suitable load for my amps and whether it has any 'unpleasantness' that I wouldn't like. That would at least help to get the potential candidates slimmed down a bit.

I don't worry about 'measurements' when it gets to the stage of listening, but if I'm buidling or modifying something, then obviously I do.

At the most basic, if you don't measure something (or somebody hasn't done it for you) how do you know it will even fit on your rack? :D

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, Turk 182 said:

hi blacksabbath25

i was referring to one particular poster who quite clearly had an axe to grind with me hence my comment.

we have now blocked each other so its the end of the matter as far as i'm concerned...once again its only a forum.

i will (hopefully) have a budget of £3000+ soon hence a cheapo system from pc world will not cut it - my old system cost £1500 - the new one will have to beat it...

i have some active speakers to test coming soon anyway. active speakers chosen after reading advice from this forum - something i had not considered before.

How big is your room ? As you can soon speed £3000  and probably get more bang for the buck secondhand or Ex-demo and what are your requirements in separates .

As i would be spending a big chunk of £3000 on speakers if it was me then the rest on the amplifier but basically the amplifier needs a good power supply a low noise floor and good clean power which you could probably get from Marantz , Pm8005 , Pm8006 , Yamaha A-S2100 , Arcam which i can't remember the Arcam models without looking them up but theses 4 models have the above spec your after in a good amplifier .

And speakers are a personal thing which you need to listen to yourself but make sure the speakers will be a match with the amplifier and your room on a sonic level which you will know when you demo them .  

Edited by Blacksabbath25

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, CnoEvil said:

You could do a lot worse than a Gato DIA 250S with streaming module (open box/ex-dem) with Kef LS50s.

Talking of measurements -  Kef LS50

I've never heard them but looking at the frequency response, it would be interesting to know if some vocals sound a bit glassy/bright?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Bodgit said:

Measurements are for people with rulers.

and no ears?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Fatmarley said:

Talking of measurements -  Kef LS50

I've never heard them but looking at the frequency response, it would be interesting to know if some vocals sound a bit glassy/bright?

Now lad - if you listen to records and cds and stuff you will note that the glassy/bright bits ya talk about are actually upper midrange and lower treble (check out the frequency response of instruments and voice).  So there are no hard and fast rules here and the answer is to listen and determine which you like the sound of best.   As a rule of thumb measurements to do help (ya wouldn't go and listen to speakers that had a frequency response like the Himalayas) and it gives an indication of quality of production and design. 

As to knowing if some vocals sound glassy and bright the only way to establish that is to go listen - because your idea of glassy and bright may be someone else's idea of perfection.  If ya gets 25 or more people saying something is glassy and bright then you have a decent sample to suggest you might find the same but that is not guaranteed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, Fatmarley said:

Talking of measurements -  Kef LS50

I've never heard them but looking at the frequency response, it would be interesting to know if some vocals sound a bit glassy/bright?

I'm suspicious that there may have been a problem with the measurements there. The impulse response looks somewhat odd, and I'm increasingly seeing examples on other forums where configuration of the measurement system, and slight timing sync errors between the transmit and receive parts, can lead to erroneous results.

Stereophile's results should be more reliable, and look much better:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/kef-ls50-anniversary-model-loudspeaker-measurements

(Do I think speakers that genuinely performed as shown by the response curves in the link above would have audible problems? Yes.)

Edited by MartinC
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, Fatmarley said:

Talking of measurements -  Kef LS50

I've never heard them but looking at the frequency response, it would be interesting to know if some vocals sound a bit glassy/bright?

I am very sensitive to a bright/glassy sound (I currently own Harbeth)...and owned LS50s for several years.

In my case, they sounded very natural, handling classical music with ease. Violins and Sopranos will always find bright speakers out.

IME. The LS50s are mini reference speakers, so need partnered and set up with care. I used mine very successfully with Arcam Class G and Linn DS.

Edited by CnoEvil
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually that LS50 data does raise an important point: measurement data is only useful if it is accurate, and inaccurate data is worse than no data at all.

For example, earlier this week it took me a while to persuade someone that some small nearfield monitors weren't actually giving a flat output down to 26 Hz no matter what a measured amplitude response might suggest.

As usual for threads of this type we have conflation of specifications and measurements of all types. For myself I have used microphone measurements to significantly improve the sound of my system, by optimising loudspeaker position, subwoofer integration and applying room mode compensating parametric EQ. I flat out could not have achieved results that were as good without measurements.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, uzzy said:

Now lad - if you listen to records and cds and stuff you will note that the glassy/bright bits ya talk about are actually upper midrange and lower treble (check out the frequency response of instruments and voice).  So there are no hard and fast rules here and the answer is to listen and determine which you like the sound of best.   As a rule of thumb measurements to do help (ya wouldn't go and listen to speakers that had a frequency response like the Himalayas) and it gives an indication of quality of production and design. 

As to knowing if some vocals sound glassy and bright the only way to establish that is to go listen - because your idea of glassy and bright may be someone else's idea of perfection.  If ya gets 25 or more people saying something is glassy and bright then you have a decent sample to suggest you might find the same but that is not guaranteed.

I know where glassy/bright is because i've been building my own speakers for years, so no need for me to listen. I was just curious to see if they sound like those measurements suggest they do. Nothing more...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.