Turk 182

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1 minute ago, Iceman 16 said:

He should change his name and avatar to Mouthplaster

9EC189E8-3FD0-49EF-8126-E808E88616D3.jpeg

lol !

i just wish he would elaborate more. 

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1 hour ago, Muckplaster said:

hi TrevC

very witty but in another thread you typed "mains stuff does not affect performance" - care to elaborate ?

for example does increasing or decreasing a mains supplies impedance not affect "performance" ?

maybe if you increase or decrease the voltage on the mains supply - any "affect" then ?

how about increasing or decreasing the amount of radio frequency interference ?

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Posted (edited)

Changing or stabilising the mains voltage and impedance will require either a regenerator or equipment way out of the ballpark here in terms of cost. In that regard, it's worth pointing out that regenerators can cause sometimes as many problems as they can solve. Until you get to the crazy price level, they are only suitable for low-current equipment.

On another point, there is a vast difference between impedance and resistance and good luck with changing the impedance of the mains supply. If you're looking at a resonable load (power amplifiers, for example), then transformer coupling is the only real option. However, again that can involve issues. The word 'coupling' is used deliberately, because a transformer in many ways does not act as a filter. There are also obvious issues in that no matter what system of regenerating, filtering or coupling, you will at all times have the standard mains earth connected. Obviously, not only 'will' but also 'must'. It's not free of interference itself, but obviously you cannot isolate it.

I have in the past used a very heavyweight, transformer-coupled and filtered unit. It did make a noticeable difference to my system when exhibiting at Scalford, but with fifty odd rooms of all sorts of audio equipment, a lot of it somewhat ancient, the mains was very heavily polluted there. I was also using some older equipment myself, built and designed long before much of today's mains-borne interference was ever even thought about. Here, it made absolutely zero difference, but then I'd not have expected it to.

As others have pointed out. Things like cables, mains conditioning, etc. are at best just tinkering around the edges. Get everything else right first before you even think about thinking about stuff that can only make the smallest (if any) difference.

Edited by rabski
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2 hours ago, rabski said:

Changing or stabilising the mains voltage and impedance will require either a regenerator or equipment way out of the ballpark here in terms of cost. In that regard, it's worth pointing out that regenerators can cause sometimes as many problems as they can solve. Until you get to the crazy price level, they are only suitable for low-current equipment.

On another point, there is a vast difference between impedance and resistance and good luck with changing the impedance of the mains supply. If you're looking at a resonable load (power amplifiers, for example), then transformer coupling is the only real option. However, again that can involve issues. The word 'coupling' is used deliberately, because a transformer in many ways does not act as a filter. There are also obvious issues in that no matter what system of regenerating, filtering or coupling, you will at all times have the standard mains earth connected. Obviously, not only 'will' but also 'must'. It's not free of interference itself, but obviously you cannot isolate it.

I have in the past used a very heavyweight, transformer-coupled and filtered unit. It did make a noticeable difference to my system when exhibiting at Scalford, but with fifty odd rooms of all sorts of audio equipment, a lot of it somewhat ancient, the mains was very heavily polluted there. I was also using some older equipment myself, built and designed long before much of today's mains-borne interference was ever even thought about. Here, it made absolutely zero difference, but then I'd not have expected it to.

As others have pointed out. Things like cables, mains conditioning, etc. are at best just tinkering around the edges. Get everything else right first before you even think about thinking about stuff that can only make the smallest (if any) difference.

 Very well said indeed sir :)

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3 hours ago, rabski said:

I have in the past used a very heavyweight, transformer-coupled and filtered unit. It did make a noticeable difference to my system 

What sort of differences did it make?

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Just now, Muckplaster said:

What sort of differences did it make?

As above, in my system at home, none.

In a location with serious mains-borne interference and quite notable DC offset, it stopped issues with mechanical hum. It also removed some unpleasant and noticeable background noise on some older valve equipment. It made no difference to more-modern amplifiers or any of my digital front-end stuff, as I'd have expected.

The Quad ESL57s I was using had noticeable, though quiet, hum and general noise with no signal source, which they never did at home here. The isolation stopped that. I wasn't guessing it or imagining it. Many other people heard it and many other people experienced 'issues' at Scalford, but I'm not in the least surprised. With all the systems and some of the equipment there, I would imagine the mains waveform would have looked interesting to say the least.

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15 hours ago, rabski said:

Changing or stabilising the mains voltage and impedance will require either a regenerator or equipment way out of the ballpark here in terms of cost. In that regard, it's worth pointing out that regenerators can cause sometimes as many problems as they can solve. Until you get to the crazy price level, they are only suitable for low-current equipment.

On another point, there is a vast difference between impedance and resistance and good luck with changing the impedance of the mains supply. If you're looking at a resonable load (power amplifiers, for example), then transformer coupling is the only real option. However, again that can involve issues. The word 'coupling' is used deliberately, because a transformer in many ways does not act as a filter. There are also obvious issues in that no matter what system of regenerating, filtering or coupling, you will at all times have the standard mains earth connected. Obviously, not only 'will' but also 'must'. It's not free of interference itself, but obviously you cannot isolate it.

I have in the past used a very heavyweight, transformer-coupled and filtered unit. It did make a noticeable difference to my system when exhibiting at Scalford, but with fifty odd rooms of all sorts of audio equipment, a lot of it somewhat ancient, the mains was very heavily polluted there. I was also using some older equipment myself, built and designed long before much of today's mains-borne interference was ever even thought about. Here, it made absolutely zero difference, but then I'd not have expected it to.

As others have pointed out. Things like cables, mains conditioning, etc. are at best just tinkering around the edges. Get everything else right first before you even think about thinking about stuff that can only make the smallest (if any) difference.

hi rabski

thanks for the detailed reply - all explained and understood.

i just with muckplaster would give a few reasons for his views !

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4 hours ago, Turk 182 said:

hi rabski

thanks for the detailed reply - all explained and understood.

i just with muckplaster would give a few reasons for his views !

I can't see a mechanism for the mains quality to affect sound quality unless the gear you're using is inadequate for the purpose. You are listening to an amplifier running on smooth filtered DC, not directly by the waveform and  the RFI of the mains. OK, so a DC offset will saturate a toroid and make it buzz, but that is easily corrected with a DC blocker.

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53 minutes ago, Muckplaster said:

I can't see a mechanism for the mains quality to affect sound quality unless the gear you're using is inadequate for the purpose. You are listening to an amplifier running on smooth filtered DC, not directly by the waveform and  the RFI of the mains. OK, so a DC offset will saturate a toroid and make it buzz, but that is easily corrected with a DC blocker.

Or to turn that statement around:

Mains will interfere with the sound quality of hifi gear unless such gear is cleverly designed to deal with RFI and other kinds of interference; such design costs money and not all manufacturers will prioritise this aspect of the design in their gear. DC offset in mains will introduce toroidal buzz.

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55 minutes ago, Muckplaster said:

I can't see a mechanism for the mains quality to affect sound quality unless the gear you're using is inadequate for the purpose. You are listening to an amplifier running on smooth filtered DC, not directly by the waveform and  the RFI of the mains. OK, so a DC offset will saturate a toroid and make it buzz, but that is easily corrected with a DC blocker.

hi and thanks for the reply / further explanation - appreciated.

when dc offset occurs (and makes a transformer buzz) does this damage an amplifier long term ?

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25 minutes ago, Bodgit said:

Or to turn that statement around:

Mains will interfere with the sound quality of hifi gear unless such gear is cleverly designed to deal with RFI and other kinds of interference; such design costs money and not all manufacturers will prioritise this aspect of the design in their gear. DC offset in mains will introduce toroidal buzz.

Exactly.

Further to that, a lot of the equipment that many of us enjoy was built and designed prior to some things that are now causing problems.

Another issue that I've recently been made aware of concerns non-OEM replacement power supplies. Want to know why you can buy some really cheap ones? After passing certification, it seems some manufacturers in certain countries have realised that a great way to save on build costs is to 'accidentally' leave out a few components. There are a number of examples circulating around the internet of, for example, common-mode chokes and capacitors being left off. It doesn't take a great deal to realise that even a competently-designed power supply would not have been designed to cope with the result of something like that.

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On 03/06/2019 at 13:17, Turk 182 said:

hi and thanks for the reply / further explanation - appreciated.

when dc offset occurs (and makes a transformer buzz) does this damage an amplifier long term ?

It's unlikely to damage anything, but a mechanical hum from a transformer is very irritating.

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3 minutes ago, Muckplaster said:

It's unlikely to damage anything, but a mechanical hum from a transformer is very irritating.

thanks for confirming this.

my old mf xa1 would hum like hell if the hair dryer was plugged in somewhere !

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