Shadders

Revealing Hifi System – How Is It Achieved ???

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Super Dealer
1 hour ago, Amormusic said:

I’ve read the other thread and see you can’t hear differences in cables and are of opinion that they are all same. 

I personally would never measure something. If I make a change, I can either hear it or I can’t - and I’ve fell down some rabbit holes wasting cash in past. 

However, I can detect differences in some cables - most recently changing from QED Silver Anniversary speaker wire to Linn K20 (copper, so perhaps matched better to my MA’s). I don’t think my system is anything special, and not that revealing, however I can.

I’m in my 30’s so I think at the younger end of the demographic on here? My mum, in her 60’s has far poorer hearing than me, noticeably to us both.   

...could it be that ears degrade over the years and therefore it’s harder to hear changes?

I don’t know if you are older/younger than me and don’t mean to sound offensive if I’ve poorly worded my thoughts. But it’s a genuine possibility. 

Ask your Mum to change cables without you knowing which is connected, then report back.

Keith

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1 hour ago, Amormusic said:

I don’t know if you are older/younger than me and don’t mean to sound offensive if I’ve poorly worded my thoughts. But it’s a genuine possibility. 

Hi,

I am not offended. I was in my early 20's at the time of the bi-wiring and expensive interconnect. For hearing tailing off, then most of the energy in music is 20Hz to 10kHz at the most - i use the plots in Hifi News to show the relative energy levels for HF etc.

Regards,

Shadders.

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2 minutes ago, PuritéAudio said:

Ask your Mum to change cables without you knowing which is connected, then report back.

Keith

I’ve no need to do that. I’m happy with what I’ve got. I’ve no need to fiddle with cables, when I can put on another tune instead...

Of far more interest to me are speaker-offs I’ve being having with mates round over past couple of weeks where we get a few beers and several speakers and waste a Sunday in style 😀

The K20 is of far less value (monetarily) than the QED was and was purchased as the QED was too long. However, to my ears night and day - possibly as copper not silver and better matched to the MAs... expectation bias is surely reversed as it’s ‘lesser’ value if that’s the thought you were having.

 I can hear what I can hear. If the K20 had of been shite (I know it’s not had it on my old Linn/PMC setup) compared to the QED I’d have cut the QED in half and kept it. 

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Super Dealer

Bias doesn’t work like that, but if in the future you really want to determine whether there is a difference between two components compare unsighted.

Keith

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As a general rule I find that the more money you spend the more revealing / detailed a system is. Although I don't imagine this is always the case but it has been that way for me. Upgrade your speakers: more detail, upgrade your source: more detail, upgrade your cables: more detail??? 

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2 hours ago, MartinC said:

To me a sensibly revealing system would mean one that has a low noise floor and low distortion (of all types).

:goodone:

When it comes to speakers a spectral decay measurement is probably the best indicator of speaker resolving power:

graham-audio-ls5-9-decay-ma.gifGraham Audio LS5/9

.

amphionargon-l3-decaycolour.jpgAmphion Argon 3L

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As a general rule I find that the more money you spend the more revealing / detailed a system is. Although I don't imagine this is always the case but it has been that way for me. Upgrade your speakers: more detail, upgrade your source: more detail, upgrade your cables: more detail??? 
I agree, except when it isn't like that!

For revealing I have come across nothing close to either horns or headphones (peace to 'statics users, my exposure to this genre is pitiful hence I can't include them).

One trouble is that 'revealing' is not the same as enjoyable so sometimes I have found that a step back in one area can become a step forward in pleasure gained. Also perceived detail is frequency response and volume dependent, hence presence lift and treble lift in many modern brands and a move towards boom-tizz speakers which sound fractionally less awful when quiet.

Some speakers 'come alive' at volume so are generally better in larger rooms, others are agreeable at low levels but they may grate on the ears as the wick is turned up, and therefore be better suited to smaller rooms. Horses for courses.

Sent from my BLA-L09 using Tapatalk

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If iam permitted to say this. My close friend has a really revealing system. Components that don't make an iota of difference on mine , make a difference on his. I've carried loads of stuff from my place to his , just to try out. And I can hear the difference in his system. He uses B&W nautilus 804 speakers.

Component vs component I have the superior boxes here. But I think his speakers are far superior to mine. They show the difference that mine don't. So I know my bottle neck, but my speakers suit my tastes better. I wouldn't be happy with his, even though I would have better clarity and transparency in the recordings. 

So I think the speakers are most important, then followed by other things down the chain. But revealing systems shouldnt be the end aim. Enjoyable ones should be . And if I wanted to nail both at the same time, I'd have to go for the PMC fact 12's, and I don't have the moolah for that :D

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Maybe I should add, that not having a system as revealing as his, is a blessing in disguise. He is constantly worried about the difference even small things make. Like I gave him my 12V LPSU before I embarked on my sail. He plugged his router into it. Just a router for Christ's sake. And though I haven't heard it, he claims it betters the sound :D

I certainly wouldnt want to fret over such things in my musical life :)

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33 minutes ago, newlash09 said:

If iam permitted to say this. My close friend has a really revealing system. Components that don't make an iota of difference on mine , make a difference on his. I've carried loads of stuff from my place to his , just to try out. And I can hear the difference in his system. He uses B&W nautilus 804 speakers.

Component vs component I have the superior boxes here. But I think his speakers are far superior to mine. They show the difference that mine don't. So I know my bottle neck, but my speakers suit my tastes better. I wouldn't be happy with his, even though I would have better clarity and transparency in the recordings. 

So I think the speakers are most important, then followed by other things down the chain. But revealing systems shouldnt be the end aim. Enjoyable ones should be . And if I wanted to nail both at the same time, I'd have to go for the PMC fact 12's, and I don't have the moolah for that :D

IME. Revealing doesn't necessarily mean enjoyable.....and Speakers are only the most important when driven correctly and with an appropriate source.

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34 minutes ago, newlash09 said:

If iam permitted to say this. My close friend has a really revealing system. Components that don't make an iota of difference on mine , make a difference on his. I've carried loads of stuff from my place to his , just to try out. And I can hear the difference in his system. He uses B&W nautilus 804 speakers.

Component vs component I have the superior boxes here. But I think his speakers are far superior to mine. They show the difference that mine don't. So I know my bottle neck, but my speakers suit my tastes better. I wouldn't be happy with his, even though I would have better clarity and transparency in the recordings. 

So I think the speakers are most important, then followed by other things down the chain. But revealing systems shouldnt be the end aim. Enjoyable ones should be . And if I wanted to nail both at the same time, I'd have to go for the PMC fact 12's, and I don't have the moolah for that :D

Hi,

I searched on the Nautilus and they are a 3 way system - and so are the PMC 26 ??

Also, i recall from the What Hifi forum that your room has a tiled floor. Is your friends house the same - tiled floor ?

Regards,

Shadders.

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43 minutes ago, newlash09 said:

They show the difference that mine don't. So I know my bottle neck, but my speakers suit my tastes better. I wouldn't be happy with his, even though I would have better clarity and transparency in the recordings. 

Very well said.  It's about you and your preferences -- not the measurements, not the reviews, not your friend's system.  I was just bantering with someone about the "resolving power" of some Class D amplification/systems that are super detailed with supreme clarity.  "This will not do," for me anyway. (PF The Wall

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4 hours ago, Shadders said:

What someone never says is what a revealing system is like, how you put together a revealing system, and what the criteria is for a revealing system. Always used a put down that you did not hear something someone else has.

What do you care what anybody else thinks about resolving systems?  Maybe you do have old ears, maybe you have young ears, or no ears, who cares?  Does your system sound good to you?  Are you enjoying the music? If something is missing do you know what it is? 

FWIW, I knew I needed more scale and a larger presence at lower volumes. So I got on here and got some advice and went out and listened to as much as possible.  I let my ears make the decision. They did not let me down, nor will yours.

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24 minutes ago, CnoEvil said:

IME. Revealing doesn't necessarily mean enjoyable.....and Speakers are only the most important when driven correctly and with an appropriate source.

Very well said Cnoevil...maybe my taste in music has a very large bearing on my likes and dislikes. But it really took a 35 year ( almost my age, who would have thought that ) old vintage krell class A amp to kick the PMC's into submission. My other two amps, the parasound halo and the Devialet just sounded okay and lean. But the krell has forged that synergy that appeals to my ears. Since iam more of a EDM and punk bloke, I thoroughly enjoy this mix. 

I also run a good source chain which again appeals to my ears. An AMR dp-777 .I tried some modern DACs from Metrum which had slightly more detail, and sounded very nice too. But the AMR's very analogish and refined presentation was something I again could'nt  trade for better clarity and transparency.

So iam firmly in the enjoyment first and details later gang. But that only dawned after I tried and listened to lots of different setups and components. Iam probably the wiser for that now. 

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2 minutes ago, ChemMan said:

What do you care what anybody else thinks about resolving systems?  Maybe you do have old ears, maybe you have young ears, or no ears, who cares?  Does your system sound good to you?  Are you enjoying the music? If something is missing do you know what it is? 

FWIW, I knew I needed more scale and a larger presence at lower volumes. So I got on here and got some advice and went out and listened to as much as possible.  I let my ears make the decision. They did not let me down, nor will yours.

Everybody cares. That's why there's a discussion going on about it.

Granted, some people care a lot more than others.

I don't care at all :rofl:

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