newlash09

Imaging vs sound staging...what's the difference

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1 minute ago, tuga said:

I think there's also a famous one by the Pink Floyd but I can't recall which...

Who?:D

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8 minutes ago, navigator said:

These psychological  illusions of sound can seem very solid ie as if the performers are present in room  in the best systems but only if recorded,  and if accurately reproduced. Some factors such as ear condition and their position make big differences so even a turned head will change apparent positioning imaging  depending on quality of tweeters and their solidity of fix ( no vibration of box/ stand ) . As usual it's source that matters primarily--it has to pick up the cues . For vinyl the cartridge stylus azimuths must be exact and firmly held , and cd laser readings nicely handled. Streamed needs accurate stable electronics (not necessarily exotica) , and steady mains .  When our ancestors lived in jungles full of predators those with ears that pinpointed the danger lived so we are rather good at sorting out spurious reflections and nailing the placements if a good cue is offered. 

I agree with most of what you say.I have a pretty varied selection of music (a casual glance at the WAYLTRN will show my preference) but the source material provides the majority of the illusion. If it is not present on the original source, we can not fake it. 

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16 minutes ago, Blackmetalboon said:

Do you have any useful links? 

I cant remember the track, but it’s an early Chemical Brothers album (I’m sure someone here will know the track) where there is a sound affect (firework/motorbike-ish) that’s pans from left to right but while doing so it performs an arc, giving a very realistic impression of height. I’ve always wondered how it was done.

Try this (works well with headphones):

https://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_ledr.php

https://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_stereophonicsound.php

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8 minutes ago, tuga said:

Thanks, I’ll give it a go.

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11 hours ago, newlash09 said:

I was hoping someone could educate me here. I have  a near field setup with PMC 20.26. And when I play it, in my present repositioned setup the sound is all encompassing. And I can still sense the vocals from the dead centre on some tracks and maybe little off set on some. And on most tracks I also get my bass and treble from the same location, and sometimes it moves side ways or upwards if it is in the track. So am I having good imaging or sound staging. And how to differentiate between the two. Thanks for your time and replies :)

Do you listen in the nearfield like this out of choice or necessity?

Your description sounds not unlike a headphone experience, which in particular lacks a sense of depth. For me a soundstage is very much 3D but I do think this probably requires a more traditional farfield listening experience to achieve.

Rightly or wrongly I've always just taken imaging to mean how well focused the sound of a particular acoustic source is to a particular location in the soundstage, and as such the two are intimately linked.

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15 hours ago, CnoEvil said:

The instruments in a Symphony Orchestra should be coming from these positions:

Image result for layout of an orchestra

Wow...thanks for that. That can be very helpful for me to try. I just saw Nopiano's very correct advise to compare with something I have actually heard live. But unfortunately I haven't heard anything live ever. 

 But the above can be a great reference for me. If I can bother you one more bit, can you please suggest me a good orchestral track from tidal, that I can try in my setup :)

Many thanks in advance :)

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15 hours ago, tuga said:

Phase manipulation can do wonders.

Great..thanks Tuga :)

I wasn't aware that this can make a difference. Always thought reversing the phase would result in a detrimental effect only. My dac has phase reversal built in, but never tried it till now. Will give it a spin now and see. Thanks :)

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Just now, newlash09 said:

Great..thanks Tuga :)

I wasn't aware that this can make a difference. Always thought reversing the phase would result in a detrimental effect only. My dac has phase reversal built in, but never tried it till now. Will give it a spin now and see. Thanks :)

I don't think that you will go very far with reversing the phase in your DAC but it may improve imaging.

I was referring to phase manipulation in the production stage, where you pick up the sound of an instrument either direct to the mixing table or with a single mono mic and then manipulate the stereo mix. For example https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/stereo-image-trickery-pc-plug-ins

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6 hours ago, MartinC said:

Do you listen in the nearfield like this out of choice or necessity?

Your description sounds not unlike a headphone experience, which in particular lacks a sense of depth. For me a soundstage is very much 3D but I do think this probably requires a more traditional farfield listening experience to achieve.

Rightly or wrongly I've always just taken imaging to mean how well focused the sound of a particular acoustic source is to a particular location in the soundstage, and as such the two are intimately linked.

Thanks MartinC

Iam in a near field setup for lack of space. My room measures 11.5 ft wide by 15 feet deep. Iam sitting in the middle of the room along the longer length, in a bass null as I have my daughter's bed behind me. But iam getting really tight bass in my listening position. Though it is unbearable at the back of the bed. Iam sitting in a equilateral triangle of 7 ft with the speakers. And as you suggested, maybe iam having a headphone kind of experience. And as Navigator suggested, even turning my head one way alters the location of instruments in space. 

Thought it is really flauntable to friends and family, this is resulting in me listening mostly critically to tracks. I was more of a back ground listener all my life. So this sudden emanating of sounds from different corners of the room, sometimes even the ceiling is getting a bit too much if I want to close my eyes and relax. Probably nothing I can do about it. I guess I have to choose between this or sitting on the bed :)

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6 minutes ago, tuga said:

I don't think that you will go very far with reversing the phase in your DAC but it may improve imaging.

I was referring to phase manipulation in the production stage, where you pick up the sound of an instrument either direct to the mixing table or with a single mono mic and then manipulate the stereo mix. For example https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/stereo-image-trickery-pc-plug-ins

Oops..okay..thanks 

Will still give it a try and see. As it doesn't cost anything :D

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Also wanted to add, from the guidance I've got so far. I think iam not getting depth. Everything sounds like it is just coming off the wall, and not through the wall. 

The front baffle's of the speakers are exactly 92 CMS from the back wall. Which has been done as per Dynaudio's 1/5th rule, as my room is 15 ft deep. And I have the speakers firing straight without any toe in. 

Will increase in distance from rear wall or some toe get me some depth. Thanks again :)

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7 minutes ago, newlash09 said:

Also wanted to add, from the guidance I've got so far. I think iam not getting depth. Everything sounds like it is just coming off the wall, and not through the wall. 

The front baffle's of the speakers are exactly 92 CMS from the back wall. Which has been done as per Dynaudio's 1/5th rule, as my room is 15 ft deep. And I have the speakers firing straight without any toe in. 

Will increase in distance from rear wall or some toe get me some depth. Thanks again :)

I'd do exactly what your're doing and experiment. There is no simple 'rule' that gives universally optimal speaker placement.

Edited by MartinC

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12 minutes ago, MartinC said:

I'd do exactly what your're doing and experiment. There is no simple 'rule' that gives universally optimal speaker placement.

Thanks again MartinC

Will experiment a bit and get back with what I find :)

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