newlash09

Imaging vs sound staging...what's the difference

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18 hours ago, newlash09 said:

Hi all :)

I was hoping someone could educate me here. I have  a near field setup with PMC 20.26. And when I play it, in my present repositioned setup the sound is all encompassing. And I can still sense the vocals from the dead centre on some tracks and maybe little off set on some. And on most tracks I also get my bass and treble from the same location, and sometimes it moves side ways or upwards if it is in the track. So am I having good imaging or sound staging. And how to differentiate between the two. Thanks for your time and replies :)

They are two parts of the same thing - soundstage is presenting a stage where the instruments and vocals are clearly defined as if as on a stage .. imaging is said to be being able to locate instruments or voices on that stage - so as you can see it is all a lot of imagery and flowery language to try and differentiate bits of kit on review.   

Interestingly bass is supposedly non directional below a certain frequency (hence why you can put a sub anywhere you like).  If your bass is moving about then perhaps it is higher bass frequencies and the bass guitarists are walking about   The thing is the closer you are to the loudspeaker then the sound stage narrows (if the speakers are close together say on each side of a mixing desk) or if the loudspeakers are far apart you get all sorts of loss of soundstage and so the imaging is all over the place.  

So if any of that made sense - namely sound staging is presenting a stage and imaging is the placement of all the various items on that stage (i think) 

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9 minutes ago, CnoEvil said:

Some suggestions to try:

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51YFqwEd77L.jpg

If it's not to your taste, let me know.

Wow..thanks a ton sir :)

Much obliged with your help. Will give the three a spin and compare with the graph you had posted and will try to access my system. Thanks a lot again :)

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1 hour ago, uzzy said:

Interestingly bass is supposedly non directional below a certain frequency (hence why you can put a sub anywhere you like).  If your bass is moving about then perhaps it is higher bass frequencies and the bass guitarists are walking about   The thing is the closer you are to the loudspeaker then the sound stage narrows (if the speakers are close together say on each side of a mixing desk) or if the loudspeakers are far apart you get all sorts of loss of soundstage and so the imaging is all over the place.

Speakers asymmetrically positioned in the room will excite different modes and the result could be bass dancing about between speakers as it modes up and down the frequency range.

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1 hour ago, tuga said:

Speakers asymmetrically positioned in the room will excite different modes and the result could be bass dancing about between speakers as it modes up and down the frequency range.

yes - but the same holds true from whatever source :) perhaps LPs are just naturally bouncier  but it had nowt to do with bounce it was to do with definition (lack of boom and bloom) 

Edited by uzzy

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I craved imaging and soundstage for years and spent a lot on different speakers and placement in the room. I played around with CD players, DACs, None did the trick but some came close, eventually I gave up and just enjoyed the music, after all that's what it's all about isn't it?

i played around with Rpi and software as so many streamers are ridiculously priced and are basically a Pi in a fancy (some come in el-cheapo plastic but still cost hundreds, brilliant device with almost limitless fiddling. I bought an Audiophonics top hat DAC, fantastic.

I then bought a pair of Proac Studio 140 II for a hugely reduced price, oh wow, there it was, a 3D image with width, depth and height. The sound just hangs in the air and to my ears there is solid placement of the musicians within the soundstage, a lot of bands I've seen live so I know where they stand on stage and this is recreated faithfully. I know I'll get shot down for the illusion aural illusion I get but I don't give a fig as it presses all my buttons!

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It’s interesting and curious that some people get worked up about soundstaging when it’s not really anything to do with the musical performance, as such. Eg. I’ve never been to a live gig and sat grinning as I notice the performers are separated by a couple of metres with one slightly further away from me. Maybe it’s fascintating just to see if a stereo can do it or not, but it’s not about musical appreciation, that’s for sure.  Not having a dig btw, it just seems an odd fixation.

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I’ll add that I do sometimes get a pleasant sense of surprise when a recording really gets an acoustic space across in a convincing way. Like ECM recordings. Good stereo sound is a pretty cool effect to recreate in a living room. I’ve been playing mono vinyl and old mono Jazz digital files lately, and the mono experience is very interesting too, but in a different way.

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2 minutes ago, Nagraboy said:

It’s interesting and curious that some people get worked up about soundstaging when it’s not really anything to do with the musical performance, as such. Eg. I’ve never been to a live gig and sat grinning as I notice the performers are separated by a couple of metres with one slightly further away from me. Maybe it’s fascintating just to see if a stereo can do it or not, but it’s not about musical appreciation, that’s for sure.  Not having a dig btw, it just seems an odd fixation.

Each to their own I suppose. I often wonder why people spend a fortune on equipment with bizarre names because they think it gives them kudos. For me it's not about some clinical excercise or a musical autopsy but finding enjoyment and often grinning because you've actually got just what you've always wanted.

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10 minutes ago, Strider said:

Each to their own I suppose. I often wonder why people spend a fortune on equipment with bizarre names because they think it gives them kudos. For me it's not about some clinical excercise or a musical autopsy but finding enjoyment and often grinning because you've actually got just what you've always wanted.

Exacurly. I may possible have been somewhat guilty of fascination with unusual equipment at times...but it’s the musical thrills that make this pursuit worthwhile. I’ve found Roon and it’s music discovery thing amazing in that respect, it’s had me shrieking with excitement at times, mind you I also sometimes do that when I realise I’ve got a cup of tea cooling down that I forgot about for 10 minutes too :^ :D

Edited by Nagraboy
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Mono was mentioned briefly on here and the sound can be a good listen . I had a think and realised that phase is easily messed up by multiple drivers and stereo kit so mono sounds more natural easier on the ear tho less exciting. More expensive speakers have accurately matched drivers - some engineered to  nth degree . If the powering kit also  preserves the phase then they will sound out any depth  recorded in even asymmetrical room arrangements.  Asymmetry reduces the size of any particular major room node tho adds smaller ones overall making for cleaner sound . It is easy to test this  ( must be with  Tweeters firing at the ears for direct radiation and making those audio clues for spacial arrangement . Excess reflections off hard objects ( remember that bare  floor) can  beat the ears compensation mechanisms but we are inherently good at ignoring them ( think party crowd scenario) .  

Aside :::: there was a mention of sorbos re cost / value ratio .  I've experimented with these because my floor is v bouncey under speakers. So - slab on floor  with 4 hemispheres hardish sorbo on it and under each tower . Same position. Difference was tighter cleaner bass and sound . Why I wondered? And how come staging wasn't ruined when boxes could easily wobble when bass hit? Possible reason that box panel resonances were reduced by Sorbo and bass vibe was controlled.  I play loud mostly and some loss of stage was noticed then - presumed new system was overloaded so returned to heavy mass idea and spikes. 

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3 hours ago, Nagraboy said:

I’ll add that I do sometimes get a pleasant sense of surprise when a recording really gets an acoustic space across in a convincing way. Like ECM recordings. Good stereo sound is a pretty cool effect to recreate in a living room. I’ve been playing mono vinyl and old mono Jazz digital files lately, and the mono experience is very interesting too, but in a different way.

ECM recordings are multi-track close-mic'ed studio productions so no real acoustic ambience there but I agree that they are good at creating a nicely balanced soundstage.

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3 hours ago, uzzy said:

yes - but the same holds true from whatever source :) perhaps LPs are just naturally bouncier  but it had nowt to do with bounce it was to do with definition (lack of boom and bloom) 

LP is mono on bass. :P

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2 hours ago, tuga said:

LP is mono on bass. :P

As I understand it that may be done below 120 hertz (usually at 60 hertz and below) but not at higher frequencies.   As to when this is done - it depends on the cutting engineer I believe.  As to when it can be on both LP and CD is another question.  We will not know but the case in question (Mr Bruce) does play all over the keyboard and yes it was clearer on LP :)  You will need to ask the cutting engineer if he monoed it when cutting as I am led to believe the master would be the same for both cd and LP .. 

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On 23/02/2019 at 21:16, newlash09 said:

Wow..thanks a lot Nopiano and Cnoevil for the very very helpful clarification. I guess iam having both. I  had my setup placement as per Dynaudio's 1/5th room placement, and it has transformed my sound completely. Iam having a wide wider sound stage with accurate placement of instruments even in my near field setup. And sometimes the drums and vocals seem to be coming from the ceiling too. Iam enjoying it immensely, but iam finding it not very relaxing. Every instrument comes from some corner in space, and it breaks the revery with my eyes closed. I don't know if Iam making any sense. It is great to bring along a friend and show him my systems imaging and sound staging. But the constant shifting of every single instrument is not very relaxing in the long run. Any idea where iam going wrong. I know that iam probably sitting too close, but I really can't help it. My system is in my daughter's bedroom , and after sitting a month listening in her bed,. I wasn't enjoying it so much. So moved to a near field setup with a lounger in front of my daughter's bed, in the small space that I could afford. So iam wondering if this is how music is suppose to be heard. And maybe I have to get used to it :)

TBH, you shouldn't have issues with your system, as both should excel in both.

IMO it's about all the above and how the amp, source and speakers interpret a particular sound, and this is where system synergy comes to the fore.

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