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On ‎11‎/‎01‎/‎2019 at 23:46, mickbald said:

....My LP12 is an '86 model without the corner supports on the plinth so I have been told that fitting a Trampolin is a problem. It's got Cirkus, Kore, Lingo 4, Ittok, upgraded cables and Ortofon Cablenza Black. It sits on a solid wood shelf on silicon studs on a solid wood rack spiked into a concrete floor. 

I don't want to change the plinth as we had had it from new, we like the old design and it's in perfect condition. 

The question is whether there is a way round this and is it worth it. 

Again, sorry about hijacking the thread but it looks like the OP is sorted with a great deck. 

As far as I'm aware there is no reason for you not to fit a Trampolin to your deck if you wish to.

The only potential  issue is that the Trampolin will not fit some older plinths  without shaving/filing  a little from its edges before it will  fit into the baseboard rebate on the plinth.  [Not difficult and an accepted fix where this issue arises.]

Edited by Smokestack
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Just my 2 cents

My mid spec LP 12 (with Akurate Radikal) sits on a wall shelf.

After the radikal / tramp issue, I recently swapped my Trampolin 2 for the solid base.

With the solid base, the LP12 seems much more musical.

M.

Edited by Matteo
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In my experience the Trampolin 2 works well musically with LP12s of any age.  There is no need for any kind of corner braces for it to work, indeed it may have an even bigger impact on a non-corner braced plinth as the aluminum plate with the 9 or 10 fasteners into the plinth will brace the plinth quite a bit more.  The confusion comes from the fact that older LP12 plinths sometimes had a bit smaller space cut into the plinth for the baseboard/Trampolin to fit into.  The sizing has never been perfect on plinths, and still isn't, as plinths are solid wood which is not a material particularly suited to precision (as it can shift a bit with age). 

With a lot of older plinths the Trampolin 2 will fit just fine but with some it is very tight or just won't fit.  There are two methods to fix this and allow the Trampolin 2 to be used.  Both have found favor with some dealers and either will allow you to have the benefit of a Trampolin 2.  One is to grind down the edges of the Trampolin 2 slightly until it fits.  The other is to shave a bit off the inside of the plinth wood for it to fit, which is the one I favor.  Either will likely give the same musical results.  The reason I favor shaving the plinth is that I have had a number of customers purchase a Trampolin 1 and then later upgrade to a Trampolin 2 or go from a Trampolin 2 to a Urika which comes on its own Trampolin (essentially a T2).  If you trim the Trampolin then you will also have to trim the next one when they upgrade and it might somewhat devalue the older unit when it is resold.  If you trim the plinth you are done - you can switch to a Trampolin 2, Urika 1, Urika 2, Trampolin 5 or whatever without having to change things again.

I don't believe it makes sense to add extra bracing to an older LP12 plinth.  If you have an older one that is not warped and has good, solid corner joins it should stay good.  Also the metal corner braces on the newer LP12s are of no benefit at all musically.  When I first saw them I mentioned them to Chris Harban, who makes the excellent Woodsong plinths, and he felt they were actually a bad idea.  I later found out direct from Linn that the ONLY reason those metal corner braces are on there is to fit with some arcane Canadian safety regulation that requires them if AC goes into the turntable. 

Finally, on Matteo's comment, there is definitely a problem with a Urika or Trampolin when used with a Radikal (and only a Radikal, due to the tall motor) on SOME LP12s.  This is another case where the variability of wood comes into play.  If the plinth height is 65mm or below the ring of the Trampolin foot nearest the motor will contact the motor casing.  This does cause musical problems - most notably a somewhat stilted timing, softer bass and less engaging musicality.  I have corrected this on a fair number of LP12s and every person has been pleased with the improvement.  I even at one point put 3 blind video clips on the Lejonklou forum of two LP12s, one of them which had been modified and the other before and after the mod.  While there was disagreement as to which of the modded tables was better (which made sense as one had a better plinth and the other had an Ekos SE/1 which is better than the original) every single person felt there was something musically wrong with the LP12 that had the motor in contact with the Trampolin foot.  None of them knew what they were listening to until I revealed it a few days later.  If the LP12 plinth is at least 66mm high, the minority of stock Linn plinths, there should be no problem and if it is between 65mm and 66mm you really just need to check it.  However, there is a fairly simple and inexpensive modification (at the store I do it for free for our customers) that fixes it while still allowing you to use the Trampolin 2 (which I find superior to the solid base) or Urika.  Without the mod the solid base will indeed be better but with the mod the Trampolin 2 shows its superiority IME.

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This is probably detailed on the Lejonklou forum, but it is rather simple, fortunately.  Fredrik Lejonklou found readily available wood strips that can be used as shims, I think made of a local hardwood in Sweden.  I went to the hardware store here and found the perfect thing - balsa strips that are 5mm wide by a hair under 2mm thick and 24" long (you can do that last conversion).  I cut two lengths that go from left to right on the Trampolin 2 stretching from where the corner cuts are, and two others that go from front to back.  Then I use the Trampolin 2 to mark where the screws will go and drill small holes in the center of the balsa strip width.  Position the strips on the Trampolin or Urika and thread the screws a little way into the balsa.  This makes it easier to fit the Trampolin in place without the strips moving around.  Remember that the front one and the back have a bit different hole spacing.  Also remember to run the Urika interconnects under the strip into the chute.  Then just tighten up the Trampolin screws in the normal manner.

I always put the felt strips on the Trampolin/Urika itself but some put them on the plinth itself.  I can't say that it makes any real difference but I prefer the felt to be between the painted metal and the balsa as the two woods will compress a little bit and not rattle.  The extra thickness of almost 2mm has worked with the shortest plinths I have seen which are 64mm as it takes them closer to 66mm, which I have found to be safe.  If you want to be sure whether it is needed there is a pretty simple test.  You can tape a couple of inch or two wide paper strips together end to end so you have a strip about half a meter long.  Unfasten the Trampolin and put the strip of paper so that one end rests on top of the Trampolin foot in the back corner under the motor and the other end feeds out through the hole under the tonearm.  Make sure it stays in place and tighten up the Trampolin (you don't need to tighten up all ten screws but I would do at least the two in the motor coroner and one in each other corner, probably the center back one too).  Then grab the end of the paper sticking out the hole under the arm and see if it pulls easily out of the turntable.  If it doesn't want to come out you have a problem and I would recommend doing the modification if you feel any resistance.  If it comes out freely you are OK. 

So far I have run into only one 65mm high plinth where there was no motor contact and the paper pulled out freely.  My guess is that the inset for the base was not cut in as deeply.   More common is the paper feeling like it will rip if you pull it very hard.  The majority of plinths I have seen have been 65mm and a fair number 64.5mm, even one 64mm.  A few have been taller than 65mm but most of those have been Woodsong plinths as Chris Harban realized a few years ago that this could be a problem and started making his plinths slightly higher, but some of his earlier plinths need the mod too.

One last suggestion is to have some of the longer screws Linn supplies to attach a Trampolin on hand.  With a Trampolin or Urika Linn supplies 8 short screws and two long screws (I believe the spec is 1/2" and 3/4").  The two long ones are for the center front and back where they go through a rectangular washer and the Trampolin before threading into the plinth.  This extra thickness means that the shorter screws, especially some of the ones Linn was using a few years ago that had sparser threads, would likely strip out.  With the extra thickness of the wood strips you may find some of the short screws do not have enough grip to tighten fully.  In that case just replace those with the longer ones.  I keep a bunch of the longer ones around for cases where the short screws will no longer tighten up enough - sometimes just from wear of repeated usage.

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Thank you for the comprehensive description, Thomas. I will for sure try the "paper check" next time I have the TT on the jig.

Is it possible to use a Dremel and do some grinding on the Trampolin 2 instead of the use of the strips? Have you tried?

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I have very limited experience of this issue... but I do know that in at least  some cases, all that is required is to  file or cut down the protruding bit of the  offending Trampolin foot fixing screw, which is often the only part fouling the motor.

In any case I'd strongly urge getting the issue resolved if your deck suffers with it. Some folks have asked if it matters that the base is touching the motor . Yes it does...big  time.

In extreme cases the pressure on the  motor could flex the top plate to compromise its all important rattle free fit with the plinth.

In less severe cases you still have something akin to the skin of a drum pressed up against the motor , the job of which is to put nothing but pure rotational energy into the platter ! 

Edited by Smokestack

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Yes it is possible to use a Dremel or similar tool to grind down the part of the foot that is touching the the motor.  Unless you have a very shallow plinth you are not likely to have to machine enough away to harm the physical integrity of the foot.  The strips are just a simple and effective way to deal with it and the size is thin enough that there is no visual change to the LP12 unless you look at it level with the Trampolin, in which case you might notice that it is slightly lower than the the bottom of the plinth - but I emphasize slightly, and not in all cases.  From a normal view it is invisible.  But either method should be equally effective.

I do want to clear up any confusion in Smokestack's reply.  The problem with a protruding screw is something most dealers have known about for several years.  However, that is something that showed up relatively rarely, was dealt with in the way he explained, and has long since been fixed by Linn.  Very early on in the life of the Urika this problem was realized and Linn rotated the foot a bit so that the screw was not under the motor, they did this sometime later with the Trampolin 2 (the Urika also uses different, shorter screws).  There was indeed a person on the Linn forum who posted a photo that showed the top plate actually lifted in the motor corner by the pressure of the screw of an earlier Trampolin against the Radikal motor!

The problem HBerg is asking about is the motor actually touching the rubber clad metal ring that the screws go through to hold the foot to the Trampolin aluminum plate.  This occurs on even the newer Trampolins and Urikas that have the foot fittings rotated to put the screws out of the way.  It also happens more than you would think - more than 50% of LP12s with Radikal and Trampolin2/Urika in my experience.  As I mentioned I have found that every plinth thinner than 65mm, and all except one that measured exactly 65mm, have needed this modification.  Likely 65.5mm and above you are OK but I have yet to come across a 65.5mm plinth yet.  I have come across a very few 66mm and my own LP12 is actually 70mm being an early Woodsong plinth before I convinced Chris Harban that they should be closer to Linn dimensions (in retrospect maybe not such a good idea).  No problem with any of those.

This problem is something that Linn have so far done nothing to rectify, nor are they willing to acknowledge it is a problem.  But a quick listening test before and after makes it obvious that it is a real concern.  A little anecdote helps to illustrate this.  A customer of mine has a Klimax LP12 with a custom Woodsong Cocobolo plinth 65mm high (it was made before Chris made them slightly taller to avoid the problem).  This runs into the full Klimax Exakt Katalyst 350A system with the latest KEDSM front end.  I had heard from a friend of his, who is also a customer, that this person was hardly ever using his LP12, listening almost exclusively to streamed music.  (He has a Radikal/Majik LP12, Lejonklou electronics and Linn Isobarik DMS and found this hard to understand.)  When I next saw the first customer I mentioned the problem and mod and he brought in his LP12.  Everything on his LP12 was as I had last set it, suspension, torques, tracking, anti-skating, etc. were all optimum.  But when using the paper test it was obvious the motor was pressing against the foot pretty hard.  I did the modification I described and he took it home.  (This is the person I mentioned recording the before and after on the turntable, and he heard the improvement in the comparisons in the store.)  The next time he was in the store was about three weeks later.  He informed that he hadn't listened to his streamer at all since getting the corrected LP12 back!  I think this story speaks for itself.

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4 hours ago, ThomasOK said:

This problem is something that Linn have so far done nothing to rectify, nor are they willing to acknowledge it is a problem.  But a quick listening test before and after makes it obvious that it is a real concern. 

Incredible! 

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On 11/01/2019 at 23:46, mickbald said:

First of all I have upgraded from a Lingo 3 to 4 and the difference is considerable, I'm very glad I went ahead with it so glad the OP has bitten the bullet. . 

I'm keen not to hijack this thread but i am interested in the comments about the Trampolin. 

My LP12 is an '86 model without the corner supports on the plinth so I have been told that fitting a Trampolin is a problem. It's got Cirkus, Kore, Lingo 4, Ittok, upgraded cables and Ortofon Cablenza Black. It sits on a solid wood shelf on silicon studs on a solid wood rack spiked into a concrete floor. 

I don't want to change the plinth as we had had it from new, we like the old design and it's in perfect condition. 

The question is whether there is a way round this and is it worth it. 

Again, sorry about hijacking the thread but it looks like the OP is sorted with a great deck. 

I may be excommunicated for suggesting this, but an 86 plinth without the large corner fillets may benefit from the Tiger Paw top plate and cross strap, AS LONG AS YOUR MAIN BEARING ISN'T SHAGGED as many of this age are, due to thrust plate hardening inconsistencies (borderline ones will only now be knackered and bad ones were mostly replaced under warranty!). The Tiger Paw principle seems to render the plinth more as a box frame rather than a major structure as it is in conventional decks.

Just a suggestion above. I despise the fruity bloated sound of mid period LP12's with a more demanding arm than a Basik Plus (mid 80's LP12 with Ittok or early Ekos or Zeta may be 'involving' but it's often so damned *wrong* to me - and also Linn, when we compared the deck as it then was, to the master recording in Glasgow). The thing has come forward so far and for the better since then, but at what price..... Hope the OP loves his new purchase, the new Majik arm has great pedigree amongst those that knew its earlier version as a Jelco main model ;) 

P.S. I don't know why, but the Majik supply is disliked among the Guru dealers, I don't yet understand why - but no doubt I'll be able to find out in due course... I'd have hoped the later motors would be better behaved with a simpler supply, but I'm obviously wrong here.

Edited by DSJR

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The last Majik PS seems to be an improved version of the early Basic PS.

There is someone who prefers the Valhalla to the Lingo and somebody else who prefers the Basic to the Valhalla ...

I know also a couple of persons who prefer pre-Cirkus LP12.

M.

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I conclude that folks  judge with differing criteria.

..and so long as they enjoy listening to their chosen kit...that's really all that matters.

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