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Sgt Pepper

Loudness Wars Question

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7 hours ago, Sgt Pepper said:

Most if not all of my CD's sound fantastic, so what or how do you tell if you have a problematic recording?

Do you have any Oasis or RHCP? They are generally compressed and sound awful.

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1 minute ago, BeeRay said:

Yet most vinyl has a larger dynamic range than cds released in the last 20 years, if you look on the drdatabase you will see. 

I have seen, and agree that should not be the case.

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Super Dealer

The DR databases aren’t that accurate I believe as they include the records run in and out grooves.

Keith

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9 minutes ago, BeeRay said:

Do you have any Oasis or RHCP? They are generally compressed and sound awful.

There's nothing that can be done to improve the music itself.

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5 minutes ago, Muckplaster said:

There's nothing that can be done to improve the music itself.

No but the less compressed version as in the case of California sounds much better than the compressed one and it's not really my sort of music.

Edited by BeeRay

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56 minutes ago, BeeRay said:

Do you have any Oasis or RHCP? They are generally compressed and sound awful.

Mainly The Beatles, Stones, ZZ Top, Budgie, Pink Floyd.

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Super Wammer

Interestingly the most recent Ziggy Stardust remaster is the hottest yet, but it still sounds better than any digital version beforehand. Not as good as the first pressing vinyl though, warts and all.

LPs seem to nearly always get a higher DR, even when created from the same master. People have posited explanations for this across the web, but I've not seen general agreement as to why this may be.

I wouldn't choose my music based on it's DR, otherwise I wouldn't have any Rammstein, but I do use it as a tool to try and get the best digital mastering of the music I love. I also reference the Steve Hoffman forum, which is full of useful information on different masterings. Sometimes, as with Ziggy, the best DR isn't always the best sounding. For example some mastering engineers use a lot of EQ, which can still give a good DR, but sound thin and screechy.

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It is like this - you either like a recording or you don't.  If you do not like the recording and do not like the music then it is painful and totally yuk.  If you don't like the recording but love the music you live with it :) but I do not see any point in debating something over which we have no control.  We cannot uncompress it -when it is done it's done end of ..  there is a funny smell in here (I think it is a lot of bullshit) but this article will explain about mastering for vinyl ..http://www.prioryrecordingstudios.co.uk/preparing-digital-masters-for-vinyl/  what is interesting is you do not need to downsample a digital master to 48khz CD quality .. make of that what you will (but it suggests that a vinyl cut from a greater than 48khz sampling rate might well be better than the CD produced). I do not want a debate on this - just note and agree or disagree to yourselves.

The problem with LPs is fitting a lot of music on - so depending on the time length of the tracks the grooves may have to be cut smaller and more tightly spaced (reduced volume .. think a tape recorder and reducing the record volume to stop it going into the red)  which will also reduce the dynamic range.   To overcome this some "super fidelity" disks are cut at 45rpm (resulting in a triple album from what was a single 33 1/3 LP etc.  

As to compression for vinyl - this article makes it clear A loud master with excessive compression or limiting is not recommended for vinyl  The cutting engineer will decide how loud the record can be cut.  A louder digital master does not translate into a loud vinyl master.

So live with it - we cannot change a highly compressed recording .. it can be seen that the care and preparation of recordings for vinyl is one of the reasons why a Vinyl copy sounds better than the corresponding CD .. I do not want an argument about this .. CD only fanatics will scream about the greater dynamic range etc etc of a CD but at the end of the day the actual recording and how it is mastered to make a vinyl copy is the key where a lot of time and care goes into it - (no pressing a button and out pops out a copy).

At then end of the day forgive me but it is pointless arguing about because what is best to you is what your ears tell you is best .. and if your ears are complaining about the compression and sound if you like the music live with it and if you don't, well just don't listen to it ..  :peace:

 

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37 minutes ago, uzzy said:

It is like this - you either like a recording or you don't.  If you do not like the recording and do not like the music then it is painful and totally yuk.  If you don't like the recording but love the music you live with it :) but I do not see any point in debating something over which we have no control.  We cannot uncompress it -when it is done it's done end of ..  there is a funny smell in here (I think it is a lot of bullshit) but this article will explain about mastering for vinyl ..http://www.prioryrecordingstudios.co.uk/preparing-digital-masters-for-vinyl/  what is interesting is you do not need to downsample a digital master to 48khz CD quality .. make of that what you will (but it suggests that a vinyl cut from a greater than 48khz sampling rate might well be better than the CD produced). I do not want a debate on this - just note and agree or disagree to yourselves.

The problem with LPs is fitting a lot of music on - so depending on the time length of the tracks the grooves may have to be cut smaller and more tightly spaced (reduced volume .. think a tape recorder and reducing the record volume to stop it going into the red)  which will also reduce the dynamic range.   To overcome this some "super fidelity" disks are cut at 45rpm (resulting in a triple album from what was a single 33 1/3 LP etc.  

As to compression for vinyl - this article makes it clear A loud master with excessive compression or limiting is not recommended for vinyl  The cutting engineer will decide how loud the record can be cut.  A louder digital master does not translate into a loud vinyl master.

So live with it - we cannot change a highly compressed recording .. it can be seen that the care and preparation of recordings for vinyl is one of the reasons why a Vinyl copy sounds better than the corresponding CD .. I do not want an argument about this .. CD only fanatics will scream about the greater dynamic range etc etc of a CD but at the end of the day the actual recording and how it is mastered to make a vinyl copy is the key where a lot of time and care goes into it - (no pressing a button and out pops out a copy).

At then end of the day forgive me but it is pointless arguing about because what is best to you is what your ears tell you is best .. and if your ears are complaining about the compression and sound if you like the music live with it and if you don't, well just don't listen to it ..  :peace:

 

I agree with some of that but it can be uncompressed, it has been done with California, which is one of the most derided cds around apparently and the uncompressed version does sound so much better. Debating it may change attitudes, that is the point of things like the loudness wars and the drdatabase, it also helps when buying cds which ones to go for or avoid. I have seen some movement recently towards less compressed masters. Radio now has equalised volumes so it's no good making the music louder for radio. Yes vinyl is another matter, it is down to the cutting engineer how to fit it all on  and not make the stylus jump off, less music per side helps a lot. CD have more DR but unfortunately it is rarely used, it's like having a car that can go 200mph and and only driving it in first gear. The problem is most music these days is not played on hifi and most people don't care about sound quality, in fact they would complain if you made their music less loud.

Personally I think there should be 2 versions of every album, one compressed for car/cheap headphones and one for hifi.

Edited by BeeRay

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4 minutes ago, BeeRay said:

The problem is most music these days is not played on hifi and most people don't care about sound quality, in fact they would complain if you made their music less loud.

Nothing new there - it has been the same for very many years. 

As to uncompressed - it is a process which has taken away information.  You can try to put it back but ...   I remember playing with a DBX expander years ago - not ideal but same principle) .. 

As to changing views - if you think the industry takes any notice then think again - it is only a handful of people in the industry that take notice and love pure fidelity .. if improving fidelity had a great business model (i.e. would give a return of about 1000% plus for money spent then they would do it).

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1 minute ago, uzzy said:

Nothing new there - it has been the same for very many years. 

As to uncompressed - it is a process which has taken away information.  You can try to put it back but ...   I remember playing with a DBX expander years ago - not ideal but same principle) .. 

As to changing views - if you think the industry takes any notice then think again - it is only a handful of people in the industry that take notice and love pure fidelity .. if improving fidelity had a great business model (i.e. would give a return of about 1000% plus for money spent then they would do it).

Not quite, someone needs to get hold of the master before it has been compressed. Well there is more higher quality becoming available such as HiRez, 24 bit, MQA etc, streaming lossless etc, so maybe things will change. 

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3 minutes ago, BeeRay said:

Not quite, someone needs to get hold of the master before it has been compressed. Well there is more higher quality becoming available such as HiRez, 24 bit, MQA etc, streaming lossless etc, so maybe things will change. 

oh dear and you think the master was not compressed - that is usually where it happens lol 

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