Andywilliams

Where's your sofa

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Hi flash would possibly be the way to go but would have to save for a bit longer to achieve it. Also would have to have them in my own room first to try. what about the active scm 19s.

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Super Wammer
57 minutes ago, Andywilliams said:

Hi flash would possibly be the way to go but would have to save for a bit longer to achieve it. Also would have to have them in my own room first to try. what about the active scm 19s.

Indeed. Talk to Rick @Musicraft in the same fine county as you re home demo.

And/or come to my place. I don't bite - unless you've got a really cute butt. I'm joking; I'm not gay, though I once slept with a guy who was.  I'm only 30 miles or so from Derby (though I know it's a big county). I have a kettle and I know how to use it. I won't waste your time or mine trying to describe the sound here.

Yes, full RRP is nearly £7k but there are deals to be had. A mint pair of SCM40A's came up on eBay a week or two ago at £4,000 and sold within days. Do you have to fork out for a posh pre-amp on top? You could get a very nice pre for the money you'd get for your very nice Hegel...But mine sound absolutely divine using my Arcam A49 as a pre and I'm sure your Hegel would do an admirable job too. I'm exploring other "proper" pre-amps right now and there are some which sound even better than the A49... but this is cherry-on-the-icing-on-the-cake stuff not life's essentials.

You might not be able to afford the SCM40A's today but if they float your boat then you will know where you are heading. What you mustn't do is to be tempted to go for the cheaper Mk1's as they have different tweeter and cabinet and the MkII's are a significant step up according to everyone who has heard both.

Ditto the SCM19A's: please don't. Two-way rather than three-way so without the legendary ATC soft dome mid-range.

PM me to arrange a good time for a brew. 

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The best advice came on the first page. Get a speaker that's -10db at 35hz and in ported. Position into the room to avoid the second resonance and simply enjoy your music.

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1 hour ago, Tune said:

The best advice came on the first page. Get a speaker that's -10db at 35hz and in ported. Position into the room to avoid the second resonance and simply enjoy your music.

ermmm nope - if anyone suffers from bass boom it is highly likely a sealed box would perform better - besides -10 db at 35 hertz is not really having a deep bass at all is it cos to achieve that would require it to be rolling off quite dramatically from at least 75 hertz IMO.   However, I guess having a speaker without low bass might sort the problem if you could live with no low bass and i certainly couldn't. 

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Super Dealer

Why not just choose any speaker you damn well like, and use a touch of EQ to eradicate any room mode ‘boom’.

Keitj

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15 minutes ago, PuritéAudio said:

Why not just choose any speaker you damn well like, and use a touch of EQ to eradicate any room mode ‘boom’.

Keitj

Aye that would be a solution but to most of us the thought of having another piece of electronics in the way with any noise it may bring is kinda the final solution and we would much rather try to sort it out without ... if that was the answer then it kinda does away with the need for lots of speaker manufacturers as we could apply EQ to achieve the sound we want.

I have said before we tried that at Guildford HiFi years ago - fed pink noise and measured and adjusted EQ until flat on a pair of Tangent TM4s or summat and it removed the recessed mid and in comparison gave it a sound signature not far away from the NS1000s and Gale 401s in the shop BUT with less definition and air and depth and width .........  general opinion was the Tangents sounded better without overall for pure musical enjoyment.

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Super Dealer

EQ is available in playback software, Roon and JRiver, DACs such as the RME range and loudspeakers themselves such as the D&D 8C, no added noise just subtracted bass boom.

Keith

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10 hours ago, uzzy said:

ermmm nope - if anyone suffers from bass boom it is highly likely a sealed box would perform better - besides -10 db at 35 hertz is not really having a deep bass at all is it cos to achieve that would require it to be rolling off quite dramatically from at least 75 hertz IMO.   However, I guess having a speaker without low bass might sort the problem if you could live with no low bass and i certainly couldn't. 

Whatever. You clearly know your stuff...

That's the problem with Forums.

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3 hours ago, Tune said:

Whatever. You clearly know your stuff...

That's the problem with Forums.

I am sorry if I cut you off in your prime - if you checked the ATC SCM II it is a small sealed box (no rear firing port to cause problems) with a frequency response that falls off dramatically from 100 hertz  and is at least -10 db at 30/35 hertz.   As such changing the speaker to your suggestion would leave him with the same situation he is in now and with a port to contend with in placement.   Now if pointing that out is a "problem" with forums then I am sorry but I think it is the whole point of a forum.

The great thing about forums is getting opinions from many people and formulating your own judgement.  It is all about learning as well and at times we all have been wrong and brought up by other members and rightly so.

I try to bring the 40+ years of my experience to the party and you can choose to ignore it or accept it.  So when an answer given (in this case to change loudspeakers to ones with a response of -10 at 35 hertz, when he already has a pair of speakers that do that and more) it is generally a good thing for someone to point out that the opinion given is wrong.

The thing is here is the guy has a smallish sealed box loudspeaker (which has a very low bass output below 70 hertz and for any problems in the bass one would first suspect that the problem is due to placement (you will see further up in this thread where someone has given details of the frequency response of the speaker and how it should not be giving bass boom).  A sofa or soft furnishing stops hi frequency reflection but as the high frequencies are are ear level then a sofa is unlike to provide any adverse response.  Deep bass however is not directional .. hence you can hide sub bass uniits behind the sofa or elsewhere. 

So there you have it - that is my view and the great thing about forums you can bet if someone thinks I am wrong they will say why.  Me and Tuga and a few others have had some great debates on what is right or wrong with differing opinions. 

I am still waiting for the poster of the thread to let us know what happens when he plays with speaker placement as suggested .  I hope that sorts the problem because if it doesn't we need to work out what is causing the problem before he changes his loudspeakers as some new ones with even better low end response may lead to an even bigger problem.  

:peace: 

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Hi uzzy just on my lunch break I just want to say I have no problems whatsoever with my Atc scm11s they sound fantastic the problem that I've had is when introducing floor standers like the dalis and pmc these where very overblown in the bass department I tryed these speakers well out in to the room without success I thought for £3000 odd they would have blown my little Atcs away but was the total opposite couldn't wait to reconnect them. My dilemma is will I have the same problem again when upgrading I may take flash up on his offer of listening to his active scm 40s then may have to see which way I go. I suppose given that most dealers would let you hear the speakers in your own home before buying you havant much to lose. 

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Super Dealer

The speakers aren’t in all probability  ‘overblown’ in the bass , their lower bass extension create room modes, not the speakers fault justthe speaker interacting with the physical dimensions of your room.

This will be true of all speakers that have extensive bass, traditionally the ‘cure’ was simply to swop to a smaller speaker with less bass extension, unfortunately you are then not hearing everything on the record which is rather a pity.

Far better to choose the speaker you want , acoustically measure the room and fix any issues.

Keith

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Super Wammer
1 hour ago, Andywilliams said:

Hi uzzy just on my lunch break I just want to say I have no problems whatsoever with my Atc scm11s they sound fantastic the problem that I've had is when introducing floor standers like the dalis and pmc these where very overblown in the bass department I tryed these speakers well out in to the room without success I thought for £3000 odd they would have blown my little Atcs away but was the total opposite couldn't wait to reconnect them. My dilemma is will I have the same problem again when upgrading I may take flash up on his offer of listening to his active scm 40s then may have to see which way I go. I suppose given that most dealers would let you hear the speakers in your own home before buying you havant much to lose. 

You won't if you choose wisely...

Both the passive and active SCM40's are sealed. However, they can still cause issues if placed incorrectly! When I delivered my passive SCM40's to the guy who bought them, he pointed me to the tight corner position where his previous speakers had been and I knew it wasn't going to go well. Yep, horrid overblown bass. Part positioning, part tiny room with steeply sloping ceiling. Much better out in the room. He then bit the bullet and moved them to his lounge, still tight in the corners but with proper ceiling height. He called me to tell me how much he was enjoying hearing his whole music collection as if for the first time on the "stunning speakers" he now owned.

Rick is an ATC dealer and nearer to you than I am so for home demo try him first and/or pop in for a brew here as soon as convenient.

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Super Dealer

As you push traditional speakers nearer to a wall or further into a corner you are going to reinforce the bass, they have no method of adjustment.

Pulling the speakers away reduces the reinforcement but introduces cancellation.

The ‘proper’ way is to place the speakers close to a wall , between 10 and 60 cm , avoiding cancellation and then adjust the speaker’s bass output,  this is what modern speakers are capable of.

Keith.

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22 minutes ago, PuritéAudio said:

As you push traditional speakers nearer to a wall or further into a corner you are going to reinforce the bass, they have no method of adjustment.

Pulling the speakers away reduces the reinforcement but introduces cancellation.

The ‘proper’ way is to place the speakers close to a wall , between 10 and 60 cm , avoiding cancellation and then adjust the speaker’s bass output,  this is what modern speakers are capable of.

Keith.

ermmm - it is one way of looking at it.  Of course the speaker manufacturers produce response graphs in free air (no rear wall to support the bass) .. cancellation may or may not occur depending on the room and your listening position.  I do not doubt you can add EQ to try and tailor a response BUT many of us enthusiasts do not want another set of electronics in the way for many reasons.

All I can quote from is my experimentation both selling and setting up stuff for customers in the past and my own experience at home.  Depending on the loudspeakers sometimes they like to be close to the wall and sometimes they do not and corners and side walls present a host of their own problems with different loudspeakers.   Also of course rear ported loudspeakers can be very unhappy being that close to a wall.

I also had to smile reading your comment when thinking of setting up electrostatic loudspeakers -- good luck with them between 10 and 60 cm from the back wall :) 

However, I respect we have differing views but all I know is I would never add extra electronics to my system to try and sort out problems that with a bit of patience and care can usually be sorted out far more easily (with better audible results) IMO.  So we will agree to disagree methinks.

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2 hours ago, Andywilliams said:

Hi uzzy just on my lunch break I just want to say I have no problems whatsoever with my Atc scm11s they sound fantastic the problem that I've had is when introducing floor standers like the dalis and pmc these where very overblown in the bass department I tryed these speakers well out in to the room without success I thought for £3000 odd they would have blown my little Atcs away but was the total opposite couldn't wait to reconnect them. My dilemma is will I have the same problem again when upgrading I may take flash up on his offer of listening to his active scm 40s then may have to see which way I go. I suppose given that most dealers would let you hear the speakers in your own home before buying you havant much to lose. 

Good man - Nigel is a great bloke with good ears.  Also if you want to stretch your legs further to Northampton you are welcome to come and get your ears around the Art Impressions (not ideally placed but to my ears still sounding fantastic).   

As to speakers blowing away your little ATCs - a well designed bookshelf takes a lot of beating because they usually have magical midrange no bass problems and a smooth detailed top end.  Making a bigger box and contending with bass response is a very difficult thing to do and sound varies much more between designs to my ears.

I like the sound of ATC loudspeakers - but there are others in the second hand market that may also suit - and the answer is to get out and get your ears around as many systems as possible to formulate what you are looking for (which you probably know now - namely what you have with a rock solid deep bass).

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