MickyP

Balanced v unbalanced

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17 minutes ago, Electro said:

This is exactly my point, my system is fully balanced from source to power amp and everything in between including the Dac, why would I use anything other than balanced XLR interconnects.

I think Electrocompaniet started making all their equipment fully balanced from input to output when several recording studio's started using Electrocompaniet power amps in the studio especially with the large B&W and Westlake speakers,  they carried on making them that way because it's simply better.

But they aren't as far as I can see, it is all single ended with conversion circuits. To convert you have to use either a balun or a sum and diff circuit wrapped around an op-amp, more nonsense in the way of the signal for no reason but marketing.

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15 minutes ago, Electro said:

I disagree . :)

aye well  not surprising, after all people disagree about cables, class A versus the others, sealed box and reflex and just about every bit of a hifi system.  As I always say whatever floats your boat is right for you 

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1 minute ago, Richard Dunn said:

But they aren't as far as I can see, it is all single ended with conversion circuits. To convert you have to use either a balun or a sum and diff circuit wrapped around an op-amp, more nonsense in the way of the signal for no reason but marketing.

Does it really matter?  If he is happy that is all that matters.  Everyone has an opinion and this is a forum not an industry standards and definition authority :) 

It is rather amusing how incensed people can come over what in the end is something so trivial.  All I know is I wish that all kit came with XLR connectors whether they were balanced or not - there is something immensely sexy about an XLR ,, perhaps size does matter and of course the number of connection pins :) 

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28 minutes ago, Danielquinn said:

Yep. But in a domestic environment it deosnt effect the sound

It might affect the sound, but it certainly doesn't effect it...:geek:

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26 minutes ago, Danielquinn said:

How have you drawn that conclusion

How have you drawn yours?

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25 minutes ago, uzzy said:

Does it really matter?  If he is happy that is all that matters.  Everyone has an opinion and this is a forum not an industry standards and definition authority :) 

It is rather amusing how incensed people can come over what in the end is something so trivial.  All I know is I wish that all kit came with XLR connectors whether they were balanced or not - there is something immensely sexy about an XLR ,, perhaps size does matter and of course the number of connection pins :) 

I think you miss the point, but I agree if he is happy then fine. The point of this thread I thought was not about him and his system it was about if balanced or unbalanced was best. I have explained the history, the reason it was invented and used, its hi-jack by the hi-fi industry. Learnt something on the way that someone is creating balanced gain circuits and has a patent. I don't know if that is better or not, but if a balun or a op-amp circuit has to inserted either end of the balanced line THEN FOR A CERTAINTY it cannot be better.

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4 minutes ago, Richard Dunn said:

I think you miss the point, but I agree if he is happy then fine. The point of this thread I thought was not about him and his system it was about if balanced or unbalanced was best. I have explained the history, the reason it was invented and used, its hi-jack by the hi-fi industry. Learnt something on the way that someone is creating balanced gain circuits and has a patent. I don't know if that is better or not, but if a balun or a op-amp circuit has to inserted either end of the balanced line THEN FOR A CERTAINTY it cannot be better.

I didn't miss the point at all - the point is some people think it is best and some do not - does it matter ?  Not a jot.  We know the physics and that preferences are probably cerebral not based on any reality :)

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4 minutes ago, uzzy said:

I didn't miss the point at all - the point is some people think it is best and some do not - does it matter ?  Not a jot.  We know the physics and that preferences are probably cerebral not based on any reality :)

:goodone:

The "FOR A CERTAINTY it cannot be better. " is irrelevant to a lot of people. What matters is what is preferred.

Edited by jkbmusic
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1 minute ago, uzzy said:

I didn't miss the point at all - the point is some people think it is best and some do not - does it matter ?  Not a jot.  We know the physics and that preferences are probably cerebral not based on any reality :)

You still miss the point, this is not about the individual and his choice, that goes without saying, even as said before about owning a one box Bose. This is a factual technical matter, with argument to show that the use of balanced lines in hi-fi is purely a marketing effort, and explaining that.

I used to build amps for large PA rigs and I would no more use single ended connections than drill a hole in my head, because that is their job, they are better at that, because of the circumstances of the job. The circumstances of the hi-fi job makes it pointless and irrelevant UNLESS it make the customer happier for some psychological reason.

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3 minutes ago, jkbmusic said:

:goodone:

The "FOR A CERTAINTY it cannot be better. " is irrelevant to a lot of people. What matters is what is preferred.

thats part of the problem with any discussion about hi=fi. There may be a technical ''certainty'', but it is doubtful that it is matched by preference. The number of times I have been told over the years, that remotes can have degrading effect on the sound. Don't care much either way but if it comes with one I'll use it. 

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1 minute ago, dudywoxer said:

thats part of the problem with any discussion about hi=fi. There may be a technical ''certainty'', but it is doubtful that it is matched by preference. The number of times I have been told over the years, that remotes can have degrading effect on the sound. Don't care much either way but if it comes with one I'll use it. 

I think that is a good point to end the discussion. Both points are true, but if asked the same question on a forum I would answer exactly the same way. Your point about remotes is very relevant and I can understand as you get benefit (lazyness 9_9) from using it. I see no benefit to be had from balanced lines in hi-fi apart from just a personal choice - so be it.

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4 hours ago, dudywoxer said:

Trouble is there is often more than one version of the truth. In a lot of cases its the truth as I see it.

One of them is fake news.

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What is the benefit of using a balanced a connection between electronic audio equipment in a domestic environment?

Does the benefit justify the added complexity in the signal path and the extra cost?

The friend who designed my integrated doesn't think so.

But his commercial designs are balanced because it's what the market expects. Like bi-wiring binding posts...

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At the risk of being labelled Tuga 2 :D:

By contrast, the Super-Symmetry topology does not use operational amplifiers as building blocks. It has two negative inputs and two positive outputs and consists of two matched gain blocks coupled at one central point where the voltage is ideally zero. The topology is unique in that at this point, the distortion contributed by each half appears out of phase with the signal, and we use this to reinforce the desired signal and cancel noise and distortion. This occurs mutually between the two halves of the circuit, and the result is signal symmetry with respect to both the voltage and current axis, and anti-symmetry for distortion and noise. This means that the distortion and noise of each half appears identically and cancels.

Of course, he also provides some charty things that show a decrease in some techie things. Or put more succinctly: he says it makes a difference but you may find it does not. He does like the KISS principle so maybe it does.

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