ChemMan

ProAc D30RS v Q Acoustics Concept 500 and Valves

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11 minutes ago, ChemMan said:

Now that you opened the cookie jar I have a few questions/observations, unless this is on a different forum.

1.  It looks like valves need maintenance.  The dealer said the the LIne Magnetic needs it's big tubes replaced somewhere between 2k to 3k hours.  A year to three years depending on how much I listen.  He said the tubes are about 200 euro each.  This sound right?

2. The second dealer also sells Line Magnetic and said it has far more reliability issues than the German made Octave.  He also said the Octave's smaller tubes are good for 10 to 15 years. It also has a bunch of really nice safety features.

This is my Valve Amp Thread...which has some info in it.

There is also a much longer one on the go

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Just now, CnoEvil said:

There is also a much longer one on the go

I read the last years worth and it's mainly about the tubes themselves.  It also sounds like there is lots that can go wrong with them.

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1 hour ago, Bit Perfect said:

Unfortunately the only way to really compare anything is to only have one variable as I am sure you are well aware. That means having both speakers in your room at the same time driven by the same ancillary equipment. If you have fallen in love with the valve sound and are prepared to eventually upgrade the amp to a valve amp you would have to factor that in too and listen to both speakers powered by the valve amp as well. Whether that is even feasible I do not know.

And if the valve amplifier has a high output impedance then he'll never know what the speakers sound like because the combined response will be massively influenced by the speaker's load...

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5 minutes ago, ChemMan said:

I read the last years worth and it's mainly about the tubes themselves.  It also sounds like there is lots that can go wrong with them.

I don't think it is that big of an issue. The Valves for the Pre section last longer...but owners can give you the low down. It was why i went with SS Class A. There is also Hybrid, where you are get the long life from the Valves in the Pre...which in the case of the MF Nu Vista, is about 20 years.

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Super Wammer
2 minutes ago, tuga said:

And if the valve amplifier has a high output impedance then he'll never know what the speakers sound like because the combined response will be massively influenced by the speaker's load...

Indeed.  I skirted that a bit earlier, but you’re right to highlight the effect this can have! 

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3 minutes ago, tuga said:

And if the valve amplifier has a high output impedance then he'll never know what the speakers sound like because the combined response will be massively influenced by the speaker's load...

I'm not sure what you mean here.  We are talking about the Spendor D7 and the ProAc D30RS. I heard the tube amp today with the Proac I know what that sounds like. If I want to know what it sounds like on the Spendor than I need to borrow it, bring it home and hook it up.  What do you mean I'll never know?

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Super Wammer
2 minutes ago, ChemMan said:

I'm not sure what you mean here.  We are talking about the Spendor D7 and the ProAc D30RS. I heard the tube amp today with the Proac I know what that sounds like. If I want to know what it sounds like on the Spendor than I need to borrow it, bring it home and hook it up.  What do you mean I'll never know?

I think I recall Tuga has pretty strong views on this, and tbh it is vital to understand it.  

Here’s a well written explanation, albeit of an extreme example.  Actually the review pages 1 and 2 are probably more relevant to the decision process than the technical side may appear to be. 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/primaluna-prologue-premium-power-amplifier-measurements

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25 minutes ago, ChemMan said:

I'm not sure what you mean here.  We are talking about the Spendor D7 and the ProAc D30RS. I heard the tube amp today with the Proac I know what that sounds like. If I want to know what it sounds like on the Spendor than I need to borrow it, bring it home and hook it up.  What do you mean I'll never know?

Unlike amplifiers with a low output impedance, the frequency response of many valve amplifiers is affected by the load of the speakers which varies along the frequency range. Since no two different speakers produce similar load "patterns" the combined response, which should be flat, will instead produce exaggerated levels at freqiencies where the load is low and sound attenuated at frequencies where the load is high.

See here:

https://www.stereophile.com/reference/60/index.html

https://www.stereophile.com/reference/810/index.html

For this reason high output amplifiers should never be use to compare speakers unless you don't intend to make further changes to the system in the future.

Edited by tuga

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@ChemMan If you are seriously looking at Valves, I have much less experience....which is why I started that thread. When it comes to which amp, with which valves, with which brand of valves and what features (like auto biasing), I am much more out of my depth....but there is lots of knowledge on here that should help......and of course, there are the dealers, if they are trustworthy and knowledgeable. Other brands to keep an eye out for are Jadis, Icon Audio and Unison Research.

On the Hybrid front, Pathos are excellent.

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11 minutes ago, Nopiano said:

I think I recall Tuga has pretty strong views on this, and tbh it is vital to understand it.  

Here’s a well written explanation, albeit of an extreme example.  Actually the review pages 1 and 2 are probably more relevant to the decision process than the technical side may appear to be. 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/primaluna-prologue-premium-power-amplifier-measurements

I'm still lost. What is so extreme about the example?  How is it I can't know? What am I missing here?  I am not imagining I can guess what the Spendor would sound like with the tube amp, I would need to hear that particular tube amp to make a comparison.  Also, I think I understand that just because one tube amp makes one speaker sound amazing does not mean it will make the next one sound amazing.  If I want a "tube" sound with the Spendor I might have to try many different tube amps.  The same as I have been trying different speakers with one amp.

The article basically said he likes the PrimaLuna and it sounded good, but different, with all five speakers he tried it with.  Incidentally his reference tube amp is the same one I heard today and he owns LS50s. The tech page is another language.

So the only I can figure here is there are two routes to go:

1. Buy an amp and search for a speaker or 2. Buy a speaker and search for an amp.

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@ChemMan if look closely at the Prima Luna frequency response measured into the simulated load (wavy black line) you will see that it looks a bit like the load itself:

1116PLPPfig01.jpg

Prima Luna

.

scan58.jpg

Simulated speaker load

Edited by tuga

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4 minutes ago, tuga said:

For this reason high output amplifiers should never be use to compare speakers unless you don't intend to make further changes to the system in the future.

When did I say I was using a high output amplifier to compare speakers?  I have used one Amplifier, the A39, to compare every speaker to which I have listened. When have I not been clear about that? I hear the tube amp today for fun.

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Just now, ChemMan said:

When did I say I was using a high output amplifier to compare speakers?  I have used one Amplifier, the A39, to compare every speaker to which I have listened. When have I not been clear about that? I hear the tube amp today for fun.

It was just a warning. Since all my latest messages are disturbing you I will refrain from posting on your topics.

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4 minutes ago, tuga said:

It was just a warning. Since all my latest messages are disturbing you I will refrain from posting on your topics.

With all respect for your technical knowledge, you are not answering my questions.  I have made it clear countless times I do not understand the technical jargon nor the graphs. You are confusing the issues for me and you are definitely not reading the whole story that I am sharing. It's frustrating.

Edited by ChemMan

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Just now, ChemMan said:

With all respect for your technical knowledge, you are not answering my questions.  I have made it clear countless times I do not understand the technical jargon nor the graphs. You are confusing the issues for me and you are definitely not reading the whole story that I am sharing.

It's a bit difficult to communicate without at least a tiny bit of jargon.

So you're listening to the ProAcs  and you place your Arcam with a valve amplifier and suddenly there's all this nice "air" and I am trying to tell you that it's as if you had turned the treble knob to the max on your Arcam, but this may not happen when you try the valve amplifier with the Spendors.

.

Also I wasn't criticising the fact that you are listening to a lot of speakers in such a short period of time. I am quite impressed that someone is willing to do it and I can feel your pain more that you imagine... Not being able to home demo is a huge setback, I know it all too well because I have limited funds and always buy used gear.

Good luck with your quest!

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