CnoEvil

The BBC Monitor

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10 hours ago, CnoEvil said:

Thank you, I find it confusing, so was looking to be corrected where wrong.

Do Harbeth/Spendor etc have an equivalent of the LS5/8.

No.

10 hours ago, Birdbrain said:

Well according to A Shaw, the LS5/8 is a flawed concept which he would not want to copy

It's difficult to marry a 12'' woofer with a tweeter, even a large diameter one like the Audax, hence the LS5/5.

Spendor had a larger version of LS3/6 with an extra 12'' woofer, the BC3, and Rogers made a Studio 2 monitor which replaced the 8'' with a 12'':

https://www.markhennessy.co.uk/rogers/others.htm#rogers-studio2

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44 minutes ago, tuga said:

I would exclude the SB88 and the C7ES.

You're not leaving us much to choose from !

I added the SB-88 because Derek can be counted on, and it's volume makes it the same as SP2/3

I notice that Graham has added another speaker designed by Derek, which coincidentally is the same volume and driver lineup as the SP3/1. Called Chartwell LS6.

I'm rather inclined to think that Graham are aiming at the Asian market with the BBC labels and Chartwell name. The SB-88 doesn't feature those 'enhancements'. I've never seen anyone mention the SB-88

Edited by Birdbrain

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It's no wonder I find this confusing.

I suppose it depends whether you apply strict BBC guidelines, for speakers that require royalties to be paid the BBC....or include speakers that are inspired by a particular BBC design, rather than following it.

I have included pictures of all that I think are truer BBC models.

Thanks all for the help.....it is helping untangle my confusion.

Next, maybe I'm going to touch on the sound differences....again, any help appreciated from those with personal experience, as I will be going from reviews and general research.

Edited by CnoEvil

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Don't forget the Linn Kan, considered a clone of the LS3/5A.
 

Quote

Linn
In 1979, Linn Products created the Kan – a non-BBC specification bookshelf speaker that used a LS3/5A-sized cabinet and the same B110 driver from KEF.[3][19] Linn acquired a hundred pairs of cabinets from the supplier of the bankrupt Chartwell, and used them for the very first Kans.[24] The Kan, however, used a re-badged OEM D20-LP-1 tweeter from Hiquphon. Linn installed a very simple crossover into the box that transformed it into "one of the fastest and most involving wall mount miniatures ever", according to Martin Colloms.

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I was about to mention those Kan, as that's where it really does go off track.

How do you define BBC speakers? I look at the speaker designer who knows how to design that type of speaker. Stuffing drivers in a box may not achieve the desired result.

Quality for BBC license is not strictly monitored these days, it's just a source of money for the BBC

My experience with older BBC monitors was the remarkable similarity of voicing even when very different size. I believe we are in a different position now

That's the significant point about Derek leaving Spendor

Edited by Birdbrain

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4 minutes ago, Birdbrain said:

You might be interested to read what Alan Shaw says about the BBC dip. It's in his site/forum somewhere.

Yup, I've seen that, thanks.

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What is a BBC monitor and what isn't

First of all it needs to be commissioned by the BBC for their own professional use and bought by them and utilized. This necessarily involves the manufacturer following the strict guidelines for what performance the monitor should satisfy. 

Anyone can follow those same guidelines to create clones and sell them to the general public (just like Linn did). But they are not BBC monitors, but BBC 'inspired' monitors at best. In such case no authority guarantees that they abide to the strict engineering guidelines, regardless what the manufacturer may claim.

What does officially count as a BBC monitor is when the manufacturer sells you the same monitor it builds for the BBC and the serial number confirms its from the same factory line, only difference being the address they are shipping it to is your house (or the dealer) and not the beebs.

When a manufacturer applied and got commissioned to build a monitor for the BBC, they knew they will be paid shit money per unit, but they also knew they can sell some on the side to the general public (at higher prices usually) and make up for it. That's why so many wanted to get in on the action. BBC allowed multiple companies to make these because most of them were shed sized micro ventures and no sole manufacturer could fill in the order at the time, or even stay in business long in enough.

The manufacturer that benefited the most at that time is KEF as OEM supplier for the drivers in most monitors built in that era. But they never actually made one themselves, so they homaged their participation in that historic project with the LS50, even though it has zero resemblance, they just sold their old commercially unsuccessful Uni-Q range as 'BBC genes' and turned it into a winner.

And today you have whole businesses building nothing but homage BBC monitor speakers, regardless them not selling any to the BBC directly. Allan Shaw bough the bankrupt Harbeth company exactly because of its BBC pedigree (the original maker of those strict guidelines) and sold it as a story to Asia (experienced in Japan as NEC employee), but everyone loves it and now Harbeth is a global commercial success. 

Edited by Naughtilus

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40 minutes ago, CnoEvil said:

It's no wonder I find this confusing.

I suppose it depends whether you apply strict BBC guidelines, for speakers that require royalties to be paid the BBC....or include speakers that are inspired by a particular BBC design, rather than following it.

I have included pictures of all that I think are truer BBC models.

Thanks all for the help.....it is helping untangle my confusion.

Next, maybe I'm going to touch on the sound differences....again, any help appreciated from those with personal experience, as I will be going from reviews and general research.

There are imporant aspects of the BBC designs like the thin-walled lassy cabinet which are not used in some of those speakers.

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31 minutes ago, Naughtilus said:

What is a BBC monitor and what isn't

The manufacturer that benefited the most at that time is KEF as OEM supplier for the drivers in most monitors built in that era. But they never actually made one themselves, so they homaged their participation in that historic project with the LS50, even though it has zero resemblance, they just sold their old commercially unsuccessful Uni-Q range as 'BBC genes' and turned it into a winner.

KEF did build and sell the LS3/5A, as did Audiomaster, Goodmans, Rogers, Charwell, Spendor  and a few others I can't remember.

Edited by wizmax

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4 minutes ago, wizmax said:

KEF did build and sell the LS3/5A.

Nope.

Quote

KEF
Preceding the 3/5A, KEF's Cresta (1967), KEFKIT4 (1969), Cresta II (1970), Coda (1971) were all 2-way loudspeakers that used the B110/T27 combination.[13][Note 2] KEF released its CS1 constructor kit (1981) to tap the home-build market. According to the product brochure, the kit includes "the same KEF drive units originally specified for the LS3/5A with a somewhat simplified dividing network giving a similar overall frequency response characteristic".[24]

In 1979, KEF released the Reference 101, a speaker that used the T27 (SP1032) with the B110B (SP1057) in a 6.7-litre cabinet "with a crossover of similar complexity to the LS3/5A".[13] Martin Colloms said it possessed an almost perfectly flat frequency response, but that "it neither sounded as lifelike, nor did it really better the musical performance of the standard 3/5a".[3]

In 2012, Kef released the ls50 which claimed to be 'An innovative concept inspired by the legendary LS3/5a'

Edited by Naughtilus

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Notice how everything that KEF makes is neutral, flat and boring. They go by the numbers, the first company to utilize a million dollar (in the 70's!) computer for designing speakers.

Everything EXCEPT the LS50, which sounds exciting, open and lifelike. 

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