Fourlegs

Chord Hugo MScaler announced at CanJam London 2018

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Super Wammer

Have you guys seen what had been announced this weekend? The long awaited Chord Electronics stand alone MScaler named Hugo MScaler with a price tag of £3495 and due to be available in the Autumn. It has the same footprint as the TT range but has the same MScaler technology as the top of the range Chord Blu MkII MScaler. It is causing quite a stir coming on the heels of the also recently announced Hugo TT 2 DAC.

Edited by Fourlegs
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Yes and I had a long chat with Rob Watts at Canjam 2018 today and very interesting it was to, especially the part on measurements vs hearing tests. I am doing a little write-up and will post some thoughts on Tuesday. 

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What is it. 

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Super Wammer

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1 hour ago, orbscure said:

Colour me sceptical...but if you are starting from a native CD-quality (16/44.1) data stream and processing it, no amount of wizardry/precious metal thread is going to weave in those extra bits unless all you are really doing is just an alternative encoding of a 16/41 data stream. If it were not so, then this wonder box could probably also do time travel and matter transportation Star Trek style as an encore. This is basic information theory stuff - you can't create information any more than you can create matter - if it ain't there in the original stream, it ain't there after you have finished messing with it.

Edited by Tony_J
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Super Dealer

Is it anything more than an upsampler, which you can perform ( although why would you) with software for nothing?

Keith

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Super Wammer
5 hours ago, Tony_J said:

Colour me sceptical...but if you are starting from a native CD-quality (16/44.1) data stream and processing it, no amount of wizardry/precious metal thread is going to weave in those extra bits unless all you are really doing is just an alternative encoding of a 16/41 data stream. If it were not so, then this wonder box could probably also do time travel and matter transportation Star Trek style as an encore. This is basic information theory stuff - you can't create information any more than you can create matter - if it ain't there in the original stream, it ain't there after you have finished messing with it.

4 hours ago, PuritéAudio said:

Is it anything more than an upsampler, which you can perform ( although why would you) with software for nothing?

Well guys, I’ve got news for you, the Rob Watts designed MScaler is way more than a simple upsampler. I’ve had one now for many months in the Blu mk2 and it is stunning. I quietly suggest that you do a little research or even ask nicely to see if you can listen to one. When you have heard one I am pretty sure you will want to withdraw your comments.  

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Super Wammer
7 hours ago, George 47 said:

Yes and I had a long chat with Rob Watts at Canjam 2018 today and very interesting it was to, especially the part on measurements vs hearing tests. I am doing a little write-up and will post some thoughts on Tuesday. 

I look forward to that. 

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Super Wammer
Colour me sceptical...but if you are starting from a native CD-quality (16/44.1) data stream and processing it, no amount of wizardry/precious metal thread is going to weave in those extra bits unless all you are really doing is just an alternative encoding of a 16/41 data stream. If it were not so, then this wonder box could probably also do time travel and matter transportation Star Trek style as an encore. This is basic information theory stuff - you can't create information any more than you can create matter - if it ain't there in the original stream, it ain't there after you have finished messing with it.

In the same way as no amount of wizardry is going to weave in the extra pixels in a DVD upscaler? It works. I’ve seen it on the screen and I’ve heard it with music.
Matter and energy are very poor metaphors for information; information can be replicated ad infinitum with no diminution of the original.

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Super Wammer
Is it anything more than an upsampler, which you can perform ( although why would you) with software for nothing?
Keith

It might be, bar the fancy box, simply an upscaler/upsampler. For people with the means and a dislike of using an actual computer computer in their playback chain, it might do the same job in a preferred manner. Nick might argue it is and does more than this, I can’t.
Why would you? Because you’ve heard the results somewhere else and want a piece of it.
Do though tell us what this free piece of upsampling software is to which you refer. Thanks.

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3 hours ago, Fourlegs said:

I look forward to that. 

Rob Watts talk was excellent and he is a designer of digital circuits for many, many big electronics companies. He used to spend 90% of his time making big complex chips for major digital companies, with very complex measurements, showing that they had met their design requirements. His Chord work was a side project, whereas now it is his main work.

His latest thoughts required not only demonstration of what he had achieved but convincing Chor'd's enginners(mainly  PhD guys) that his less than conventional thoughts had an impact on sound quality even though he could not measure it. That is with state of the art AP measuring equipment.

He stated very clearly that if you have a frequency limited signal going into an ADC and then use a sinc filter, you will perfectly reconstruct the original signal. No doubts, simple sampling theory. But making a perfect sinc filter is the problem.  More to come later. 

8 hours ago, PuritéAudio said:

Is it anything more than an upsampler, which you can perform ( although why would you) with software for nothing?

Keith

It is far more than that.

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Super Dealer

What then?

Because from their literature, it looks like an upsampler, simply padding a file?

Keith

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Super Wammer

What’s that free upsampling software please Keith?

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Super Wammer
1 hour ago, PuritéAudio said:

What then?

Because from their literature, it looks like an upsampler, simply padding a file?

Keith

The MScaler increases the Sinc precision to 16-bits. Absolutely 100% of a red book signal is restored theoretically perfectly . . . .

Rob Watts says, "it's about the precision of the interpolation. With a WTA filter if you double the number of taps you double the accuracy; and with 1M WTA taps we have identical performance to an ideal sinc function to a better than 16 bit accuracy. Thus ensures that the analogue signal is recovered to a better than 16 bit accuracy."

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1 hour ago, TheFlash said:

Matter and energy are very poor metaphors for information; information can be replicated ad infinitum with no diminution of the original.

 

Actually, not as poor a metaphor as you might think - one of the big arguments in physics right now is around black holes, and whether information is destroyed when matter is swallowed by a black hole. Similarly, quantum teleportation is about information transfer - see the Wiki entry:

"Quantum teleportation is a process by which quantum information (e.g. the exact state of an atom or photon) can be transmitted (exactly, in principle) from one location to another, with the help of classical communication and previously shared quantum entanglement between the sending and receiving location."

So information is becoming an integral part of moden physics.

You are correct, information can be replicated ad infinitum with no diminution of the original; however, you can't create or re-create information that isn't there. To use a photographic analogy, I'm sure you would agree that you could take a 1 megapixel, uncompressed photo, and up-sample it to 4 megapixels without much trouble, and there are packages out there that will do it for you. Trivially, you would do this by taking each pixel and replacing it with 4 pixels that were identical to the original. In doing so, although the superficial resolution has increased to 4MP, in fact the information content is still only 1MP; you can down-sample it to 1MP again without loss of information. A more sophisticated algorithm might look at adjacent pixels, or even groups of them, and attempt to interpolate from them what the image would have looked like if recorded at 4MP originally, and there are plenty of tools out there that will do just that. Again, superficially, the resolution has increased, but by a process that introduces information that wasn't there in the original - quite literally, by adding a form of distortion to the original information. Subjectively, the upsampled/interpolated image might look better to your eye than the original, but that doesn't get away from the fact that it is actually a distorted version of it.

So what is going on with the Chord device? Is the upsampling analogous to the first (photo example) case - simply replicating the information at a higher bit rate - or is it analogous to the second case - it is introducing some kind of interpolation, i.e., adding distortion (however nice it might sound) to the original? I don't believe there is a third case, but I'm prepared to be proved wrong.

If the first, there is no point. If the second, then it is down to what kind of distortion you prefer.

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