Willie Garvin

Normandy '44: The Battle Beyond D-Day

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0461mvr/normandy-44-the-battle-beyond-dday#

As veterans gather to relive one of the turning points of the Second World War, historian James Holland moves beyond the D-Day beaches to reassess the brutal 77-day Battle for Normandy that followed the invasion.

Challenging some of the many myths that have grown up around this vital campaign, Holland argues that we have become too comfortable in our understanding of events, developing shorthand to tell this famous story that does great injustice to those that saw action in France across the summer of 1944.

Including perspectives from those who fought on both sides, Holland examines not only the nature of the fighting and the higher aims of the campaign, but also the operational level - the nuts and bolts - and in so doing reveals the true complexity of this bitter and bloody battle.

This story is about the challenge for both sides to adapt to conditions in a campaign of carnage that has rarely been acknowledged.

More than just well trodden tales of heroic struggle, it is also the story of two competing military doctrines: one ill-prepared for the organisational demands of a long battle, the other in the process of building the greatest military machine ever seen.

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Posted (edited)

Thanks for posting the link. James Holland's programs are usually interesting & insightful.

Much is known about the D-Day landings but less seems to be known of the bitter fighting & carnage that followed in the Normandy battles.
The British & Canadian forces were faced by a very high concentration of the most experienced and fanatical Panzer divisions around Caen,
drawing them away from the American sectors further west to enable their eventual breakout further into France.
Montgomery's plan to take Caen on D-Day was highly optimistic & led to savage, attritional  fighting & the questioning of Montgomery's competence
from some of his peers.

Operation Fortitude - the masterful D-Day deception plan, is an incredible story in itself, & the German high command fell for it . They kept forces in the Calais
area 6 weeks after the Normandy landings in the belief that the main invasion was still to come in the Calais area. 




 


 

Edited by Von Krolock

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Will be watching this, thanks for the heads up.

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Much prefer this.

Ben Macintyre is far more entertaining and involving than James "aren't I wonderful" Holland. I've had a past run in with Mr. Holland - IMHO, and I've studied WWII since I wore nappies, he's complete and utter p##t.

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Super Wammer
On 08/06/2018 at 09:40, Von Krolock said:

Thanks for posting the link. James Holland's programs are usually interesting & insightful.

Much is known about the D-Day landings but less seems to be known of the bitter fighting & carnage that followed in the Normandy battles.
The British & Canadian forces were faced by a very high concentration of the most experienced and fanatical Panzer divisions around Caen,
drawing them away from the American sectors further west to enable their eventual breakout further into France.
Montgomery's plan to take Caen on D-Day was highly optimistic & led to savage, attritional  fighting & the questioning of Montgomery's competence
from some of his peers.

Operation Fortitude - the masterful D-Day deception plan, is an incredible story in itself, & the German high command fell for it . They kept forces in the Calais
area 6 weeks after the Normandy landings in the belief that the main invasion was still to come in the Calais area. 




 


 

we still have a normandy vet in our family grimly hanging on to life at 95 in a nursing home . tough as old boots , but i guess flying mozzies over normandy with wooden frames takes some balls 

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6 hours ago, hifinutt said:

we still have a normandy vet in our family grimly hanging on to life at 95 in a nursing home . tough as old boots , but i guess flying mozzies over normandy with wooden frames takes some balls 

I used to know an ex Mossie pilot. He crash landed off Falmouth and because the aircraft was wooden it floated until a local flying boat rescued him and the nav.

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On 15/09/2018 at 14:01, plasticpenguin said:

Much prefer this.

Ben Macintyre is far more entertaining and involving than James "aren't I wonderful" Holland. I've had a past run in with Mr. Holland - IMHO, and I've studied WWII since I wore nappies, he's complete and utter p##t.

Then start another thread about Operation Fortitude.

Macintyre's account of Plan Fortitude here & his book 'Double Cross' is an incredible story that helped the invasion succeed.

Edited by Von Krolock

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3 hours ago, Von Krolock said:

Then start another thread about Operation Fortitude.

Macintyre's account of Plan Fortitude here & his book 'Double Cross' is an incredible story that helped the invasion succeed.

I would start a thread on other aspects if there's enough interest.

Haven't read his books but the 'Operation Mincemeat, the above docudrama are excellently told. There's a lot of humour with none of patronising of Mr. Holland.

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It is excellently told.
Ben Macintyre's research is solid & his words are uncommonly lucid.
His books are fascinating reading.
The book cover of the story of the D-Day spies - 'Double Cross' - has a quote calling it 'Deeply Moving' - which it is.


 



 

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12 hours ago, Von Krolock said:

It is excellently told.
Ben Macintyre's research is solid & his words are uncommonly lucid.
His books are fascinating reading.
The book cover of the story of the D-Day spies - 'Double Cross' - has a quote calling it 'Deeply Moving' - which it is.


 



 

He is brilliant. Ben makes quite dull things interesting. Never read any of his books though.

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On ‎16‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 01:58, plasticpenguin said:

I used to know an ex Mossie pilot. He crash landed off Falmouth and because the aircraft was wooden it floated until a local flying boat rescued him and the nav.

An amazing aircraft 'The wooden wonder'.:notworthy:

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1 hour ago, Tarzan said:

An amazing aircraft 'The wooden wonder'.:notworthy:

They were fabulous aircraft. However, ply wood and very powerful engines = flimsy construction. That's why there's only one flying example. A steep climb or a dive and bits of the fuselage would 'ping' off or snap.  

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On ‎05‎/‎06‎/‎2018 at 20:19, Willie Garvin said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0461mvr/normandy-44-the-battle-beyond-dday#

As veterans gather to relive one of the turning points of the Second World War, historian James Holland moves beyond the D-Day beaches to reassess the brutal 77-day Battle for Normandy that followed the invasion.

Challenging some of the many myths that have grown up around this vital campaign, Holland argues that we have become too comfortable in our understanding of events, developing shorthand to tell this famous story that does great injustice to those that saw action in France across the summer of 1944.

Including perspectives from those who fought on both sides, Holland examines not only the nature of the fighting and the higher aims of the campaign, but also the operational level - the nuts and bolts - and in so doing reveals the true complexity of this bitter and bloody battle.

This story is about the challenge for both sides to adapt to conditions in a campaign of carnage that has rarely been acknowledged.

More than just well trodden tales of heroic struggle, it is also the story of two competing military doctrines: one ill-prepared for the organisational demands of a long battle, the other in the process of building the greatest military machine ever seen.

I found this on Youtube after having read this thread:

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The inflated egos & rivalry of Montgomery & Patton was almost a war within a war. Patton wanted to drive the British back to the Channel
& claim all for himself when he was on his high after liberating lightly defended western France,  but bad wars are shortened by bad people like Patton.
The British & Canadians around Caen took on the baddest Nazi Jugend & Ost Front SS vets.

Edited by Von Krolock

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These may be of interest the D-Dayers. At our local vineyard nearly two years ago a WWII tank - a Covenanter - was excavated. Apparently the vineyard was used by the Canadian Army for firing practice prior to the D-Day landings.

Picture 1 wonder who owns blue Alfa Sportwagon is in the background (ahem)? :ph34r:

Enjoy.

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Edited by plasticpenguin

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