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Super Dealer

Of course Ducky,  this is from a friend of mine who is head of design at one of the world’s largest driver manufacturers, I asked him about burn -in.

‘We test every driver off the production lines for frequency response, sensitivity, and TS parameters, even the budget drivers!

it’s debateable if burn-in exists for electronics because it’s hard to measure any change, but for drivers burn-in is very easily measured,

You will see some change in parameters after burn-in, the Fs will reduce, the Qm (mechanical Q) will also drop, and Cms will increase, these are all effects of the suspension softening from it’s ‘fresh’ state, 

The spider is a resin impregnated fabric, and it’s the resin that micro-fractures and the spider softens.

The effect is exponential, so the biggest shift is achieved in the first few hours, and then it ver slowly changes over time from there.’

 

Keith

 

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Super Wammer
 
 
 
 
 
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4 minutes ago, PuritéAudio said:

Of course Ducky,  this is from a friend of mine who is head of design at one of the world’s largest driver manufacturers, I asked him about burn -in.

‘We test every driver off the production lines for frequency response, sensitivity, and TS parameters, even the budget drivers!

it’s debateable if burn-in exists for electronics because it’s hard to measure any change, but for drivers burn-in is very easily measured,

You will see some change in parameters after burn-in, the Fs will reduce, the Qm (mechanical Q) will also drop, and Cms will increase, these are all effects of the suspension softening from it’s ‘fresh’ state, 

The spider is a resin impregnated fabric, and it’s the resin that micro-fractures and the spider softens.

The effect is exponential, so the biggest shift is achieved in the first few hours, and then it ver slowly changes over time from there.’

so how do you align with this that you stated earlier in the thread "the long break in /running in which is for want of a better word tosh."

 

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Well said Duckworp,

I have kept away recently because of Keith's views on things, which I don't find helpful in anyway what so ever. We recently had a conversation on amps and I was moving to a lower wattage amp from AudioZen and was told by Keith that it would be backwards move, purely on the fact that it had less watts per channel than the Gato I was replacing.  I can inform the forum, without a shadow of a doubt, that the AudioZen, in my opinion, blew the Gato into the weeds with its more organic, detailed and dynamic sound.  In fact I liked the combination so much I am upgrading again to a set of their new Mono's and am expecting further gains in my listening experience.

I am the proud owner of a pair of W8se plus speakers that sit so nicely with the AudioZen amp. I did not like the W8s to begin with as they have a particular presentation, but the more I heard them, the more I liked them.  I understand they will not be to everyone's taste, but I find them open, natural, organic, dynamic and not overpowering, which was something that I was experiencing with other brands of speakers I tried in my room. 

For me, there is no doubt these are the one of the best speakers I have ever heard or experienced in my room as its set up now. 

Like I have said, I am not aware they are to everyone's taste, however, how can you have a justifiable opinion on them if you have never tried them? Yes, you may not like the way they look, OK, but I have found they sound so different depending on the room they are in and there position, that you would have to live with them for a bit to form a valued and justifiable opinion. 

I would love to come back and chat and chew the fat over these speakers, but I am not going to participate if I keep getting shot down in flames from people that have not owed, or experienced these speakers. It would be interesting to know if there are any speakers that sound similar or remotely like these, as I am now looking at upgrading my second system in the back room, which is mainly vinyl based and would like a similar type of sound for a lesser budget.

Anyway, rant over and normal business resumed!

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Super Dealer

I am sorry “shari’ I have no recollection of any conversation with you and have never heard of ‘AudioZen’ amplifiers, I have no experience with Gato either, although I believe they are based on a class-d module.

Boenicke speakers are extremely insensitive though, so I would ( as does the review) recommend a capable amplifier.

Keith

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Super Wammer
18 minutes ago, PuritéAudio said:

I am sorry “shari’ I have no recollection of any conversation with you and have never heard of ‘AudioZen’ amplifiers, I have no experience with Gato either, although I believe they are based on a class-d module.

Boenicke speakers are extremely insensitive though, so I would ( as does the review) recommend a capable amplifier.

Keith

So in answer to the points made by Shari have you heard Boenicke speakers ? Have you had a pair on long term audition ? I freely admit that I do not but read this thread with interest because I heard Mavericks pair at Kegworth and was interested in owner views. My other comments have been sugestions for why they take so long to sing which I feel but can not prove is as well as based on the Drivers also the cabinets which would seem to have similar issues as unfinished solid wood acoustic guitars which change tone over there entire life .

I was also riveted by the experience of the Flash and his trials . One day I will get to meet up with Nigel when we both have a little time and talk it over with him and what went on .

I do not own any of these speakers so not able to make much comment regarding sound quality but I will make comments i believer on other areas.

If you have not heard these speakers or had them for long term listening then I feel it would be best if you refrained from adding any comments as noted they are neither helpful nor do they offer anything but annoyance to those reading and contributing while this is acceptable and tolerated in the general threads I think it not acceptable on owners threads.

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Super Wammer
6 minutes ago, bencat said:

I was also riveted by the experience of the Flash and his trials . One day I will get to meet up with Nigel when we both have a little time and talk it over with him and what went on .

Looking forward to this!

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Bencat...good post and good points made. Of course people that do not own a set but have heard them on a number of occasions are going to have opinions on them, which, if balanced and informed are of course acceptable and appreciated. I find it fascinating that people hear speakers and sound so differently and there is always loads to learn. I have been on a massive learning curve this past year having listened and auditions dozens of speakers before settling on the w8s. It seems the more I learn, the more I need to learn!

You are welcome anytime, as is anyone else to come around and check out my system as there is nothing better than chewing the fat over hifi and a beer!

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Super Wammer

Shari the difference in these speakers is exactly why I would not make comment right now regarding sound quality . Yes I have heard them and as we all do I made a judgement on that exposure. However this I will keep to myself until I have a chance to have a real listen either in my own room or in a place I know well . There is lots about this design that is different and there are lots of things that make them unique . Until this can be understood and heard as a listener it is wise to keep your own views private.

Thank you for your very kind offer to come and listen sadly the days of me driving up and down the country and being close to you are long gone , maybe you will be inspired and take your system to Kegworth in which case book me a seat as I will be there next year.

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Super Wammer

I would strongly counsel against judging the W8s based on Kegworth.

The room is very compromised and we are planning a different approach for 2020, more of that later . . . . 

If anyone can be bothered for a listen my door is usually open (being a professional layabout) and good coffee and tea available. Mine are well over 18 months in now and actually the 2nd pair that I have run in. Having Roon / Tidal I can play just about any recording. The offer is there Andrew :) just off J24/M62

My final comment is that they suit my current musical tastes, so for example if I played a lot of heavy rock / metal etc. then I'd be seeking out, say, some AE2s or would have simply kept my 752 Freedoms rather than W8s, but, not unusually my listening habits have changed over the decades - of course Bowie and Springsteen are still regular fare.

Actually, this sounds rather wonderful and is floating my boat:

shot.jpg

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14 minutes ago, Maverick said:

I would strongly counsel against judging the W8s based on Kegworth.

The room is very compromised and we are planning a different approach for 2020, more of that later . . . . 

If anyone can be bothered for a listen my door is usually open (being a professional layabout) and good coffee and tea available. Mine are well over 18 months in now and actually the 2nd pair that I have run in. Having Roon / Tidal I can play just about any recording. The offer is there Andrew :) just off J24/M62

My final comment is that they suit my current musical tastes, so for example if I played a lot of heavy rock / metal etc. then I'd be seeking out, say, some AE2s or would have simply kept my 752 Freedoms rather than W8s, but, not unusually my listening habits have changed over the decades - of course Bowie and Springsteen are still regular fare.

Actually, this sounds rather wonderful and is floating my boat:

shot.jpg

I have long been a fan of that album - it would not be the kind of music I would normally gravitate to (I enjoy classical but not really choral/opera) but this music sounds so beautiful through the Boenicke’s it warrants repeated listening. 

With regards to Boenicke speakers they are no different to other speakers in that they are the system component where performance depends so much on the environment they are placed in.

Having said this the W5SE’s seem to sound excellent wherever they are placed in my lounge (within the bounds of domestic acceptability). Minor tweaks with regards to placement have brought improvements but nothing earth shattering to my ears. 

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Super Wammer

Morning chaps,

Bank holiday down here so been taking time to read the threads properly as I started the current round off a few pages back. Just to reiterate, I still like my W8s very much but they don't seem to be happy bed partners with my new cartridge (ART-1000) - on certain recordings. I underline that because, on better recordings, they still sound utterly beguiling - Rodrigo Y Gabriella's Mettavolution I am playing virtually daily because it sounds so good. I play a lot of acoustic guitar/female vocalists and the sound on most is as good as it gets - but, for instance, on Joni Mitchell's Blue, which I have owned since the early seventies, it just sounds harsh - Joni Mitchell as fish-wife.

So back to my original question - has anyone heard speakers with similar imaging properties to Boenicke (which is what sold them to me)? Or to put it another way - if Boenickes were suddenly banned and impounded by the measurists, which make/speaker would you choose instead?

Richard

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13 hours ago, TheFlash said:

Great stuff, Malc.

My "dramatic" was because someone else posted that graph some time ago and said they wouldn't go there, work of Satan... or similar. I focused on the consolidated ("spliced") FR line on same graph.

I can absolutely accept that one person's exciting is another's bright and one person's bright is another's harsh - that's partly nomenclature and partly personal taste/hearing of course.

I did try various room placements and my Kendal pad saw them very differently positioned from while running in in Leicestershire. It certainly made a difference but to my ears the fundamentals didn't change. And let's put it out there: here we have a speaker which vs its £competitors needs exceptional running in time, needs an exceptionally powerful amplifier to give of its best, and is hypersensitive to positioning. I'm not sure that's my sort of speaker, and realising that a few weeks ago would have been helpful.

2 hours ago, shari said:

I would love to come back and chat and chew the fat over these speakers, but I am not going to participate if I keep getting shot down in flames from people that have not owed, or experienced these speakers. It would be interesting to know if there are any speakers that sound similar or remotely like these, as I am now looking at upgrading my second system in the back room, which is mainly vinyl based and would like a similar type of sound for a lesser budget.

Nigel,

I have to admit that i'm facinated by the Boenike's but I dont really see them as being unique, but the bringing together lots of attributes and techniques that have been used and tried by other designers over the years. For example rear tweeters (Snell, AR, Definitive), Transmission line (IMF, PMC, numerous others), Side fiting woofers (Audio Physics, Rega, Gallo) Carved wood cabinets (SoundKaos). I could contine, but we have not seen them in a single product.

If you look at how Boenike always demonstrate their speakers its with a huge amount of space around them. A long way from the rear wll, at least a 1/4 to 1/3 down the length of the room and a long way from any side walls. My guess the reason why the end result can be quite different and listeners reaction is the old chestnut of the room. If the positioning in the room is not ideal or the room too small then the result will be below par.  They also seem to rely to some extent of refelected sound in the room so if the room is too live or highly damped its going to modify the result again, and to some extent this reminds me of omni's which exploit the room in this way.

Regarding amplification, then I think most people tend to drive them with what are considered as average power output these days 50 to 150 watts. However; Sven Boenike is on record regarding his recommended amplification - "Sven Boenicke, the designer, advised in an email follow-up to that review that he considered ‘proper amplification’ for his speakers to be amplifiers that are capable of delivering 1,000-watts per channel into 4Ω loads."

It would be interesting to know if there are any speakers that sound similar or remotely like these

You pose this question and I think the answer is yes there are several but some will try to exploit the room while others will try to negate too much interaction with the room, but they will all have a bigger physical footprint in the room. The Boenike soundfield reminds me a great deal of dipole speakers, either conventional cone or panel speakers like the Linkwitz, Bastanis, Magnepans and Quad ESL's. These type of speakers require carefel placement in the listening room for best results especially distance from rear walls although side walls can be less of a problem.

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On 03/05/2019 at 12:26, HouseElf said:

Will do. 

Having read this it would seem to have the Boenicke seal of approval.......https://www.kinki-studio.com/news/ex-m1-boenicke-w8

So the EX-M1 arrived yesterday afternoon and I had a listening session until around 1am this morning. 

It sounds wonderful and has given the Boenicke’s the power that they need to come alive. Strangely, despite it’s lower power, the Audiozen Alchemy feels like it has more drive. By comparison the EX-M1 sounds bigger with a wider soundstage, much more detail and far better placement of across the soundstage. It easily and confidently helps the little W5SEs fill the room with music.  It does all this without it feeling like music is being thrown at you. 

The amp is also beautifully built - far better than any other amp I have owned. 

All in all I am very pleased - it was a change well worth making. 

E24FF1C0-3A7C-46ED-8B57-41775F1304E3.jpeg

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3 minutes ago, Richard A said:

Morning chaps,

Bank holiday down here so been taking time to read the threads properly as I started the current round off a few pages back. Just to reiterate, I still like my W8s very much but they don't seem to be happy bed partners with my new cartridge (ART-1000) - on certain recordings. I underline that because, on better recordings, they still sound utterly beguiling - Rodrigo Y Gabriella's Mettavolution I am playing virtually daily because it sounds so good. I play a lot of acoustic guitar/female vocalists and the sound on most is as good as it gets - but, for instance, on Joni Mitchell's Blue, which I have owned since the early seventies, it just sounds harsh - Joni Mitchell as fish-wife.

So back to my original question - has anyone heard speakers with similar imaging properties to Boenicke (which is what sold them to me)? Or to put it another way - if Boenickes were suddenly banned and impounded by the measurists, which make/speaker would you choose instead?

Richard

I can recall two pairs of speakers that I have had in my lounge that imaged well (not as well as the W5SE’s though). They were some Totem Model One Signatures and Living Voice OBX RW’s. Both were compromised in other ways that meant they didn’t last.

In my experience the smaller the speaker,  the better the imaging presumably because there is less interaction with the room - the issue with small speakers, as you will appreciate, is that they lack scale. I think you will struggle to match your Boenicke’s if imaging AND scale are your main priorities but could be wrong. 

With regards to Joni Mitchell I can honestly say that whilst I appreciate she is a wonderful songwriter she has always sounded like a cat having a rectal exam with a rolling pin on any system that I have owned.

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Just visited Sven at Munich HiFi show.  He has the W11se here driven by his new DAC and the Boenicke integrated amp which he says should hit retail sometime soon.  The room sounds amazing.   His amp is 400w into 4 ohm. 

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