M4RK5

Hifi....Too Expensive??

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Super Wammer
5 minutes ago, Tony_J said:

A good walk spoiled.

you can of course walk without expensive foo bats etc, added benefit of not having to wear stupid clothing just appropriate clothing

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36 minutes ago, Tony_J said:

A good walk spoiled.

Only because you can't flight your ball under the wind where you live :D

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Super Wammer
12 minutes ago, Duvet said:

Only because you can't flight your ball under the wind where you live :D

such language in 2 channel from a mod ?

.

.

oh it's some kind of golfist joke is it? :roll:

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On 4/4/2018 at 20:07, notevenclose said:

Are you suggesting Sugden, Leema and Lavardin electronics are not competitive in comparison with Primare?

No.

On 4/4/2018 at 20:07, notevenclose said:

Or are you suggesting Primare couldn't compete with those brands – and many others who also manufacture in their home country – if they were still built in Scandinavia?

Don't know. Maybe they can produce better equipment cheaper and be more competitive if they manufacture in China.

On 4/4/2018 at 20:07, notevenclose said:

Primare manufacture in China because they make more money per unit than they would if they were manufacturing in Sweden.

There is no other reason for doing it.

Yes there is, They may be able to manufacture in Sweden and be "competitive" but if they make the same quality product cheaper then they are more "competitive". Making more "profit" just makes them more "profitable". 

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17 minutes ago, crisis said:

Yes there is, They may be able to manufacture in Sweden and be "competitive" but if they make the same quality product cheaper then they are more "competitive". Making more "profit" just makes them more "profitable". 

Being 'competitive' is producing a product which compares with their competition on a mix of quality, performance, reliability, features and a prospective purchaser's perception of their brand values.

For some people, the perception of the brand is negatively affected by Chinese manufacture. It's no surprise that Luxman for instance ditched Chinese manufacture, even though the company is in Chinese ownership. I'd guess they identified that trying to sell a Chinese-made premium-priced product into a highly competitive market was a case of 'good luck with that...'

Being 'competitive' is partly subjective and ultimately outside the manufacturer's control. But if they're not making a profit, gravity can only be defied for a finite period before the company goes tits up.

I'm sure you're happy with your Primare and your MAs and are apparently unconcerned where they're made, which is of course your personal choice. My personal choice would be not to purchase those products because of where they're made when I consider there are plenty of competitive alternatives.

Ironically of course when it comes to aspirational/premium goods, the Chinese often don't want Chinese-made products either, they'd rather have a product of Western or Japanese manufacture, not least because it carries more status. And with regard to low-cost/everyday items, they frequently don't want Chinese products either because they don't trust the manufacturers.

Funny old world. Very dull one if we were all the same.

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On 4/6/2018 at 21:40, notevenclose said:

Being 'competitive' is producing a product which compares with their competition on a mix of quality, performance, reliability, features and a prospective purchaser's perception of their brand values.

Companies don't want to be "competitive" . They want to be better than the competition. A "point of difference" or a "competitive edge". In the case of manufacturing in China some companies can offer a product that would cost significantly more if it was produced elsewhere. It offers a value advantage.

On 4/6/2018 at 21:40, notevenclose said:

For some people, the perception of the brand is negatively affected by Chinese manufacture. It's no surprise that Luxman for instance ditched Chinese manufacture, even though the company is in Chinese ownership. I'd guess they identified that trying to sell a Chinese-made premium-priced product into a highly competitive market was a case of 'good luck with that...'

That is merely being a snob. If the equipment is built as well and performs as well or better then those who adopt that mentality are simply short changing themselves.

On 4/6/2018 at 21:40, notevenclose said:

I'm sure you're happy with your Primare and your MAs and are apparently unconcerned where they're made, which is of course your personal choice.

Fairly patronising. :^

On 4/6/2018 at 21:40, notevenclose said:

My personal choice would be not to purchase those products because of where they're made when I consider there are plenty of competitive alternatives.

Your choice but basing it on where they are manufactured as opposed to the quality and performance of the product, please see above.

On 4/6/2018 at 21:40, notevenclose said:

Ironically of course when it comes to aspirational/premium goods, the Chinese often don't want Chinese-made products either, they'd rather have a product of Western or Japanese manufacture, not least because it carries more status.

What does "status" sound like... Just because they are Chinese doesn't preclude them from snobbery or illogical decisions. Ultimate high end is sometimes  the domain of people who choose based on perceived quality.

On 4/6/2018 at 21:40, notevenclose said:

And with regard to low-cost/everyday items, they frequently don't want Chinese products either because they don't trust the manufacturers.

Funny old world. Very dull one if we were all the same.

Different subject altogether.

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5 hours ago, crisis said:

Companies don't want to be "competitive" . They want to be better than the competition. A "point of difference" or a "competitive edge". In the case of manufacturing in China some companies can offer a product that would cost significantly more if it was produced elsewhere. It offers a value advantage.

That is merely being a snob. If the equipment is built as well and performs as well or better then those who adopt that mentality are simply short changing themselves.

Fairly patronising. :^

Your choice but basing it on where they are manufactured as opposed to the quality and performance of the product, please see above.

What does "status" sound like... Just because they are Chinese doesn't preclude them from snobbery or illogical decisions. Ultimate high end is sometimes  the domain of people who choose based on perceived quality.

Different subject altogether.

At the end of the day it is about units sold .. if the item will only sell in 100s then the production costs increase and profit margins decline.  Marshall do a beautiful 2 x 100 watt valve amp for a grand - they sell thousands of them and are in competition with a host of others who also sell 100a of units.. if they only sold 100s then the price would be higher end of.  So to maximise profit if I can get it built in china for a fraction of the cost I will and I will charge what the market will bear .. better to sell three amps for £20k and more proficatable than selling 30 amps for £2k.  So the volume market in hifi has gone (in the most part) which means production costs are higher and selling things is tough .. So yes hifi is more expensive but if every tom dick and harry wanted stuff then the volume market would return and prices would be more competitive .. so don't hold your breath as that is not going to happen some time soon.

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Chinese manufacture is only really worthwhile for volume production. If the item is built in 10s of units then the makers will tend to keep them in house.  Another alternative is the one taken by Puresound.  They take a product made in China by someone like Bewitch and specify certain changes to improve performance and badge it as their own.  Having owned a Puresound 8000 CD player and loved it, then it's fine by me.  A couple of years ago the CD transport started playing up, took it for repair.  The engineer who carried out the repair enthused over how well made it was.  The only weakness was the Sony transport mechanism.  Took it to a dealer to compare it to a Krell CD player, I was interested in buying.  He said buying the Krell would be a waste of money and I should stick with what I had. 

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18 hours ago, uzzy said:

At the end of the day it is about units sold .. if the item will only sell in 100s then the production costs increase and profit margins decline.  Marshall do a beautiful 2 x 100 watt valve amp for a grand - they sell thousands of them and are in competition with a host of others who also sell 100a of units.. if they only sold 100s then the price would be higher end of.  So to maximise profit if I can get it built in china for a fraction of the cost I will and I will charge what the market will bear .. better to sell three amps for £20k and more proficatable than selling 30 amps for £2k.  So the volume market in hifi has gone (in the most part) which means production costs are higher and selling things is tough .. So yes hifi is more expensive but if every tom dick and harry wanted stuff then the volume market would return and prices would be more competitive .. so don't hold your breath as that is not going to happen some time soon.

They do a pretty nice 40 watt DSL cheaper than I could ever buy one 15 - 20 years ago because it is made in Vietnam. I had a problem with mine and took it to the people who serviced them. It turned out to be a faulty pre amp tube. I made a point of asking if the Asian amps exhibited more problems than the British built ones and he said no. He said the biggest issue were like mine. Faulty valves due to the fact these things get shipped all around the world.

Marshall doesn't have them built in Asia to maximize profits. They do it to remain competitive. They have a name that they would not compromise. The quality control is the same as that if it were built in the UK.

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5 hours ago, crisis said:

They do a pretty nice 40 watt DSL cheaper than I could ever buy one 15 - 20 years ago because it is made in Vietnam. I had a problem with mine and took it to the people who serviced them. It turned out to be a faulty pre amp tube. I made a point of asking if the Asian amps exhibited more problems than the British built ones and he said no. He said the biggest issue were like mine. Faulty valves due to the fact these things get shipped all around the world.

Marshall doesn't have them built in Asia to maximize profits. They do it to remain competitive. They have a name that they would not compromise. The quality control is the same as that if it were built in the UK.

But the top of the range ones are still made in the UK for those with deep enough pockets.  Some of the Chinese stuff is now held  in high esteem .. and if it keeps hifi alive and kicking long may it continue.  Top marks for pointing out that Marshall do it to keep prices as low as possible. to keep their public and them happy (win win) 

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I think we’re spoilt choice these days at all price levels.   I’ve very recently bought a Naim MUSO Qb for the kitchen and for the money I think it’s just superb.   Back when I started (1979) you couldn’t have got anywhere  near that kind of quality in a one boxed system at that price. 

Regards,

Lindsay

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On 4/8/2018 at 16:20, Ron Hilditch said:

Chinese manufacture is only really worthwhile for volume production. If the item is built in 10s of units then the makers will tend to keep them in house.  Another alternative is the one taken by Puresound.  They take a product made in China by someone like Bewitch and specify certain changes to improve performance and badge it as their own.  Having owned a Puresound 8000 CD player and loved it, then it's fine by me.  A couple of years ago the CD transport started playing up, took it for repair.  The engineer who carried out the repair enthused over how well made it was.  The only weakness was the Sony transport mechanism.  Took it to a dealer to compare it to a Krell CD player, I was interested in buying.  He said buying the Krell would be a waste of money and I should stick with what I had. 

Sounds like a very honest dealer .. be careful buying any expensive CD player as the transport mechanisms may soon go out of date and out of stock (ask Meridan CD Player owners to name but one make .. ).   If you do feel the need to upgrade your CD player investigate different DACs and audition with cheap CD players with a digital out socket (or using your own CD player) .. the combination should hold you in better stead if you are in it for the long haul.  When the laser dies you throw the player away and replace with another cost effective replacement :) 

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Better yet you replace the transport when the laser dies. These things are basically plug and play.

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