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Hifi....Too Expensive??

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9 hours ago, britishcomposers said:

If you liked those, you'll like the Edinburgh HE's when you come here next week.  You will also like the Lancaster 12" Golds.  I daren't play the IAS Beaulieu's in the same sitting though as it'll spoil everything.  Had Jazz Record Requests followed by Jazz Line-Up  playing this-afternoon on Radio 3 and there were some really well recorded numbers played that sounded utterly superb and life-like, including a recorded live session on Line-Up.  

How do the Edinburghs compare to current Canteburys? I have not heard Canteburys in a good demo but they look the business and sounded good in less than ideal circumstances, although talk is the Legacy speakers are not too far behind in SQ. I heard the Beaulieus a long time ago and maybe they changed before production stopped. They were good but not stunning.

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3 hours ago, George 47 said:

How do the Edinburghs compare to current Canteburys? I have not heard Canteburys in a good demo but they look the business and sounded good in less than ideal circumstances, although talk is the Legacy speakers are not too far behind in SQ. I heard the Beaulieus a long time ago and maybe they changed before production stopped. They were good but not stunning.

The Beaulieu's are heaven around here.  Best loudspeakers I've owned by a real margin and in several ways, but they warrant careful placement and very good equipment before them.  Without this they'd probably sound overbearing.  Focal Utopia Diablo was my next favourite, followed by the Edinburgh which, having heard Canterbury 15's, (there were 12''s too but never seen beyond the brochure), are probably the best loudspeaker I've heard for realism with piano;  not just with Tannoy either, (which I've owned a few!), but in general.

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On 3/27/2018 at 21:46, SergeAuckland said:

Completely disagree. What let those stack systems down was the poor loudspeakers they were sold with. Put one with some decent KEFs or B&W and the quality was perfectly decent. Even the turntables in many cases were decent enough, like the  Pioneer PL12D or a Dual although some were poor.

I have a Technics system in my study driving JR 149s that does an excellent job, the amplifier manages some 40 watts per channel at around 0.05% distortion, so hardly shabby. Even the phono stage is quite decent.

S

There were better speakers and you could add them. At a price. The point is it is cheaper to get better quality sound now than it was 20 - 30 years ago.

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On 3/30/2018 at 21:54, notevenclose said:

It's hard to do with everything. Often the biggest difficulty is unravelling who owns what and where it's made.

I'm not specifically concerned with whether a product is British or not, but I do prefer that things be made where 'they're supposed to be' or if they're not, then that's apparent. I try to at least buy products which are made by an adult earning a reasonable wage in a decent environment rather than being assembled with a teaspoon by a 12 year old Chinese schoolgirl.

On 3/30/2018 at 22:39, notevenclose said:

There wouldn't be enough hours in the day to keep track of everything. I tend to be more fastidious where there's some pride of ownership or a reasonably chunky amount of cash involved.

This is the first time in 40 odd years where I've no British-made kit in my system, with the exception of a Heretic mains block, everything is Swiss, Japanese or French (rack) and made in those countries. CEC did at one point have some of their cheaper products made in China, although it seems that was a relatively short-lived agreement facilitated by Carlos Candeias (now behind BMC, which is manufactured in the same factory I understand). 

I do have a pair of B&O speakers in the office, which proclaim, Apple Style, 'designed in Denmark, Made in China' which I admit was a bit disappointing on discovery. I knew they had an Eastern European factory, in the Czech Republic IIRC, but I hadn't realised they'd gone (a lot) further east. Should have paid more attention I suppose, but they weren't that expensive, so hey-ho.

My Primare CD and amp are "made in China" and my Monitor Audio speakers are "made in China". What is important is their designing and the quality control of how they are assembled. Both of these companies (and may others) would not compromise their name by simply sending manufacturing offshore and taking the money. CAD equipment and robots work as well in China as they do in England or anywhere else. There was a time when "made in Japan" had the same stench. One must be careful and selective in any purchase but one also shouldn't dismiss equipment purely because of where it is assembled. I simply would not have been able to afford my equipment if it had been manufactured in Sweden and England.

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3 minutes ago, crisis said:

There were better speakers and you could add them. At a price. The point is it is cheaper to get better quality sound now than it was 20 - 30 years ago.

That's certainly true of electronics , although I don't know just how good cheap 'speakers are today. Back   the mid 1980s, 'speakers like the B&W DM110s, Mordaunt-Short MS25s, or KEF Codas were pretty good and under £125 a pair then.  The typical 'starter' system then was a Dual 505-2, a NAD3020 amp and a pair of MS15s or Mission 70s for £299.00 so £962 in 2018 according to my inflation calculator.

What would the equivalent £1000 starter system be today? 

S

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23 minutes ago, SergeAuckland said:

That's certainly true of electronics , although I don't know just how good cheap 'speakers are today. Back   the mid 1980s, 'speakers like the B&W DM110s, Mordaunt-Short MS25s, or KEF Codas were pretty good and under £125 a pair then.  The typical 'starter' system then was a Dual 505-2, a NAD3020 amp and a pair of MS15s or Mission 70s for £299.00 so £962 in 2018 according to my inflation calculator.

What would the equivalent £1000 starter system be today? 

S

Simple Google of "What HiFi" "best" so I accept the source is questionable but for the exercise -
 

Rega Planar 1

Marantz PM6006

Monitor Audio Bronze 2

£930

Onkyo C-N7050

Marantz PM6006

Monitor Audio Bronze 2

£1030

I have not heard these nor the components you suggested but I would put my money in the new equipment camp every time.

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27 minutes ago, crisis said:

 I simply would not have been able to afford my equipment if it had been manufactured in Sweden and England.

I doubt the price would be any different. I can't think of a single example where a manufacturer offshoring to China rather than Europe or US has reduced retail prices to reflect the lower cost of manufacture, can you? 

It's purely about maximising profit. 

Fine, everybody running a business, myself included, needs to make a profit to survive.

But to suggest that it's impossible to market a good product at a competitive price point and make a reasonable profit without it being manufactured in China might come as a surprise to the likes of Sugden, Leema and Lavardin for instance.

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9 minutes ago, notevenclose said:

I doubt the price would be any different. I can't think of a single example where a manufacturer offshoring to China rather than Europe or US has reduced retail prices to reflect the lower cost of manufacture, can you? 

It is not about "reducing" prices. It is about remaining competitive. Electronics have come down significantly in price if compared with wages and inflation and this is partly due to the cost of manufacturing.

9 minutes ago, notevenclose said:

It's purely about maximising profit. 

As above there is a fine line between maximising profit and balancing that with competing and selling your product.

9 minutes ago, notevenclose said:

But to suggest that it's impossible to market a good product at a competitive price point and make a reasonable profit without it being manufactured in China might come as a surprise to the likes of Sugden, Leema and Lavardin for instance.

That is a huge leap from what I actually said.

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Guest

As i have said after looking at the Richers website I can easily assemble a once source system for under £300 and a two source for well under a thousand and it will make a very decent sound . Hifi is as expensive as you want it to be. 

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15 minutes ago, crisis said:

It is not about "reducing" prices. It is about remaining competitive. Electronics have come down significantly in price if compared with wages and inflation and this is partly due to the cost of manufacturing.

As above there is a fine line between maximising profit and balancing that with competing and selling your product.

That is a huge leap from what I actually said.

Are you suggesting Sugden, Leema and Lavardin electronics are not competitive in comparison with Primare? Or are you suggesting Primare couldn't compete with those brands – and many others who also manufacture in their home country – if they were still built in Scandinavia?

Primare manufacture in China because they make more money per unit than they would if they were manufacturing in Sweden.

There is no other reason for doing it.

If they can't produce a competitive product at a given price point, it won't sell and in the long term, they won't survive unless they have interests in other, more profitable, markets. See Oppo as an apparently pertinent example.

That seems to be the nature of capitalism.

It's also the spirit in which each of us chooses, as mentioned earlier, to vote with our wallets. We just choose to vote differently.

Edited by notevenclose

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I think if you buying a premium product the support and care should reflect that . Now i have mentioned Richers a few times in this debate but this from their website and its what i want to see from the premium brands 

6 YEAR SUPERCARE COSTS JUST £9.99 ON ALL ITEMS UNDER £100, OR 10% OF PURCHASE PRICE ON ANYTHING OVER £100.

We think you’ll agree that our Supercare guarantee offers fantastic value. What’s more, if you don’t use our it in the 6 year period, we’ll refund the cost of it. You really can’t say fairer than that! 
Plus, if we can’t fix a fault, we will give you a like-for-like replacement."

 

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Or A&R Cambridge who brought manufacture back to the UK from China and got a significant increase in product reliability (fewer factory failures).

Edited by George 47

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Super Wammer
21 hours ago, Duvet said:

Hifi is as expensive as you want it to be. 

A bit like other hobbies? a golf pro once showed me how he could out drive everyone else on the range with a simple piece of planed wood, he then went back in to his shop full of foo golf bats etc to sell gear - this confirmed my view that golf was a money pit and not for me.

Much better to buy more vinyl and new equipment :whistle:

  • Haha 1

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Golfs an interuppted walk so it's exercise . There's a bit of exercise with vinyl I guess. And it can be very social !

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26 minutes ago, navigator said:

Golfs an interuppted walk so it's exercise .

A good walk spoiled.

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