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Biscuit

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Biscuit wrote:

I'n not even really a big DJ Shadow fan, but I recognise an ignorant post when I see one. I've been a huge fan of hip hop since I was 11, taping Westwood shows, saving pocket money for cds and vinyl, and someone coming along and trying to poo poo what all but the most hardcore of rap fans would say was a classic really touched a nerve.

He jumped all over the hifi choice article just to masage his ego that he knows more 'hip hop' than the jounalist

I think it only fair that I answer some of the points that have been made here, in my absence. Firstly I think it would be fair to say that the original post did not offer a critique of DJ Shadow's work, rather the fact that the journalist had written a piece which clearly attributed to that album an importance which, quite frankly, is laughable, and indicates that he probably doesn't listen toHip Hop/Rap/Electro-Funk etc.

Acynic might think that the inclusion of the album, in a forum which (as Biscuit rightly pointed out) does not often include or support Hip Hop - I would say (possibly more contentiously - this could be widened to include a great deal of soul/funk/jazz/reggae etc) -is possibly related to the recent release of a 'Special Edition' of the album with out takes and extra tracks?

It's an interesting album, but the point was does it represent a "musical milestone"? If it does, in what genre? It was for this reason that I mentioned Double Dee and Steinski, who were, of course responsible for the original 'Lessons 1,2 and 3', and Steinski who went on to make 'The Motorcade Sped On'. As Biscuit acknowledges, the 'Lessons' are even more remarkable when you consider that they were put together without the help of modern computer technology - yet they still stand as timeless examples of 'cut and paste'. It is also worth recognising the fact that Shadow has been involved in attempting to recreate 'live' some of the 'Lessons', so he clearly recognises that he is part of a tradition that stretches back. It might also be worth mentioning the work of the legendary Latin Rascals and even Ben Liebrand's 'Mastermixes'as otherprecursors to Shadow's work. Set against this context, the claim made that his album represented a "musical milestone" just doesn't hold up.

I think the fact that the writer of the piece makes no attempt to place the record within a wider context, either 'specifically Hip Hop' or otherwise indicates that the journalist knows little about Hip Hop, most of the comments in the articleappear to be derived from the notes of the Deluxe album.Therefore I still regard my criticism as valid.

Now, regarding your love of Hip Hop. I share that. I have done since I was about 10 -and I'm in my early thirties now. I listened to Westwood, and Mike 'The Boss' Allen in London on Capital Radio during the early to mid 1980's. I still have the tapes of the shows, and can still remember hearing DJ Cheese and Word Of Mouth doing their live set. I am still buying records, hunting down the ones that as a youing kid I just didn't have the money to buy (this morning I finally received my copies of 'Techno City', Cybotron and 'Kights Of The Turntables', The Dynamic Duo Featuring ShaQuan and finally, 'Itchiban Scratch' Chris 'The Glove' Taylor.

So it is quite likely Biscuit that we have a great deal in common, except our method and tone of criticism.

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DJ Riz was the greatest DJ I ever heard, not technically, but the fact that he played so much dope music on the Westwood shows. '94 Westwood was awesome.

Currently listening to Stunts, Blunts and Hiphop :cool:

Fav producers:

Diamond D

Dr Dre

Premier

Pete Rock

Beatnuts

PS you started listening to Westwood quite a few years before me, I was too young for the majority of the Capital FM Dance Shows, started listening in about '91. Should probably bow to your knowledge of hiphop then, after all, its all about learning from your elders :P:D

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Guest 155

Testure wrote:

Not worth getting wound up about, anyway what does he know about music, he just infered that Kraftwerk had run out of ideas by listening to Minimum Maximum!!

Chill with a beer and dream of shinny63DP :dude:

AgainI will answer the point. I simply stated that 'Minimum Maximum' might be taken as a sign that Kraftwerk had run out of ideas, or (to take it further), that electronicmusic in general had 'caught up' with them.Look at thelast few albums they have released, 'The Mix' - although interesting it is nothing more than a remix album of varying success, followed byanalbum built around the concept of the 'Tour De France' - an album which should have been completed in place of 'Electric Cafe'.

But since then?

Furthermoreit could be argued that'Minimum Maxmum' is nothing more than the concept of a remix album taken live -thatalbum primarily being 'The Mix'.

There is no denying the influence of Kraftwerk, and on this particular thread it is quite interesting to note their influence on Hip Hop and Electro Funk in particular - especially through the work of Afrika Bambaataa and Soul Sonic Force, Arthur Baker and John Robie. 'Number's runs through most of the early 1980'sWest Coast Hip Hop produced by the World Class Wreckin' Cru, The Unknown DJ and The Egyptian Lover.But unfortunately they have yet, in my opinion, to produce anything that matches the originality of 'Computer World', 'Trans Europe Express' or 'Electric Cafe'.

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Guest batman

Testure wrote:

Not worth getting wound up about, anyway what does he know about music, he just infered that Kraftwerk had run out of ideas by listening to Minimum Maximum!!

Chill with a beer and dream of shinny63DP :dude:

do you not agree .... i love kraftwerk but how about something completely new and inventive.. oh yeah what about man machine soundtracks.. or autobahn soundtracks...:)you get the picture

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Guest 155

And it is nice to be here, thanks for the invite.

155

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The original and best Mr DJ Scott la rock..

what can we get for 63 cents..

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Guest 155

Biscuit wrote:

DJ Riz was the greatest DJ I ever heard, not technically, but the fact that he played so much dope music on the Westwood shows. '94 Westwood was awesome.

Currently listening to Stunts, Blunts and Hiphop :cool:

Fav producers:

Diamond D

Dr Dre

Premier

Pete Rock

Beatnuts

PS you started listening to Westwood quite a few years before me, I was too young for the majority of the Capital FM Dance Shows, started listening in about '91. Should probably bow to your knowledge of hiphop then, after all, its all about learning from your elders :P:D

Well Westwood used to broadcast on Kiss and LWR (at the time Kiss was a pirate station), and Mike 'The Boss' Allen was not a DANCE show. For many Allen was the first to try to bringElectro and Hip Hop through to the mainstream, although some people regard him as having 'jumped on the boat', attempting to utilisea music form that was still considered 'underground' and resolutely 'black'. There is also the fact that there were DJ's in the north of the country who had been involved inplaying the music for a long time.
Allen was also helped by his involvement with Morgan Khan, who created the 'StreetSounds Electro' compilations, an absolute msut for anyone with a passing interest in the early evolution of Electro-Funk (you can still find original copies although the prices are rising considerably). Allen was also involved with the 'UK Fresh' event in 1986,which witnessed artists such as Roxanee Shante, Capt Rock, DJ Cheese and Word Of Mouth, Mantronix, Grandmaster Flash coming to the UK, many for the first time.
And Bob James ISwhite, known to most Hip Hop heads through the sampling anduse of his two tracks 'Nautilus' and 'Take Me To The Mardi Gras' (especially by Run DMC on 'Peter Piper').
155

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Guest 155

analoguekid wrote:

HIP HOP IS CRAP!!!!

there feel better now

Not on a Sondek!

155

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Guest

No sorry it is crap, makes no differencewhat it's played on, that modern RnB (not rythym and blues) and country and western, commercial pap the lot of it, sorry, would n't sound good on a good TT never mind a sondek

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analoguekid wrote:

No sorry it is crap, makes no differencewhat it's played on, that modern RnB (not rythym and blues) and country and western, commercial pap the lot of it, sorry, would n't sound good on a good TT never mind a sondek

:D:D:D

your age is showing AK, tuck in in before anyone notices :P

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Guest

yes biccy, I do listen to break beat, dnB goan trance among otherss just can't get on with hip hop or RnB

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Guest 155

analoguekid wrote:

yes biccy, I do listen to break beat, dnB goan trance among otherss just can't get on with hip hop or RnB

It really does depend on what you mean by 'R'n'B' and 'Hip Hop', and as ever, there are important distinctions to be made between the really obvious commercial stuff, and the other material that, forvery many reasons, doesn't attract the attention of the 'mainstream' - which presumably isexactly the forum where you are being exposed to the stuff that you dislike so much.

I have to say that I'm not a great fan of the obvious three minute records with obligatory rapper mumbling away incoherently and unrelatedly to the track, but, as much as I do hate it, I have to accept that it seems to sell, and is popular. What has been interesting is the way that modern 'R'n'B' and Hip Hop (or at least specific forms of it)have slowly entered the mainstream. It is also interesting to see the resurgence in black soul music that is being made, with a strong emphasis on live recording andreal instrumentation - the exact opposite, in fact, of the commercial material that you often hear and which many decry as heraldingthe demise ofblack music.As ever the story is far more complicated, but it is not likely to feature in a discussion within (for example) 'Hi Fi Choice'.

In some respects, my earlier criticisms of the articleregarding 'Endtroducing' reflect this,members of the'mainstream' make judgements which, upon critical and contextual examination, can not be supported.The problem is, without being challenged, such judgements become 'accepted wisdom' - often to the detriment of more deserving and influential artists.

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