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10 minutes ago, barneys dad said:

Hybrid, yes. What I was questioning was the entire population having to run an electric car. As in an. electric. car (which isn't a hybrid is it)

I've been in a BMW electric car & it was brilliant. But the enforcement of electric cars is plain impractical.

Surely a Hybrid is an electric - it is both.  (Concept example: '7' is both prime and odd.)  Think: (a)  Is a Hybrid car electric? Yes.  (b) Is a Hybrid car petrol driven? Yes.  Still, the syllogistic precept eludes me.

I don't quite get the relevance of enforcement. Not impractical by shitler or stalin.  But overwhelming political point taken.  IF something IS good and important should a democratic government enforce it? 

11 minutes ago, Valvebloke said:

I think the biggest one is the extra size/weight which comes with having two motor and fuel-storage systems. This is certainly not a show-stopper though.

VB

Right you are there VB.  In my defence I will say, (1) as 'an exception to an exception' the benefit (for example in breaking) that the additional inertia of mass would give an additional energy saving, and (2) The stats, albeit produced by Toyota, are that the overall benefits outweigh the cost.

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7 hours ago, bigfool1956 said:

This is a damned good point which I hadn't thought about. There's a limited number of people who have a garage, and many people who live in flats have a commmunal car park. Where I live, many houses have a communal garage area with no electricity. The price of charging at service stations makes a mockery of cost savings (£3.00 connection fee !!!), plus cars can't be fast charged all the time. Imagine the queues - "Sorry I'm 5 hours late for work, had to charge the car".

Don't Tesla do a scheme in the US whereby you drop your exhausted battery and replace it with a charged one?  Not that I see that being widespread.

With the Tesla, you buy the whole kit and caboodle, the batteries don't drop out, or are easily swappable.

They have invested in some infrastructure for the charging aspect, but , you have the same issue around range.

The technology for "pure" electric cars is restricted by the batteries and charge times.

Hydrogen fuel cells are the way forward.

However, they have plenty of issues to resolve. There are about 45 cars running around in the UK  (apart from testbeds and special taxis and buses) Hyundai and Toyota are heavily involved. The issues are around safe storage and filling stations. The cars are around £160k each for an IX35. The hydrogen storage tanks are built by 1 company in Canada for about £50k each and have walls that are 80mm thick. Remember the Hindenburg

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Super Wammer

Here is an interesting article about the challenges for supplying power for all these electric cars:

https://www.ft.com/content/852dbb54-8411-11e7-a4ce-15b2513cb3ff

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Super Wammer
Here is an interesting article about the challenges for supplying power for all these electric cars:
https://www.ft.com/content/852dbb54-8411-11e7-a4ce-15b2513cb3ff

And for non-subscribers the essence of the article is...?

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Super Wammer
1 minute ago, TheFlash said:


And for non-subscribers the essence of the article is...?

oh, I clicked through from an email, didn't realize the link would be blocked :(

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Super Wammer

OK I can't get back into the article either now :doh:

Basically it says that a car charger for the next generation of long range electric cars and a kettle will be enough to blow the main fuse on a house, and that having several people in a road all charging their cars at once will cause power cuts.

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11 minutes ago, bigfool1956 said:

OK I can't get back into the article either now :doh:

Basically it says that a car charger for the next generation of long range electric cars and a kettle will be enough to blow the main fuse on a house, and that having several people in a road all charging their cars at once will cause power cuts.

It's pretty obvious that today's domestic electrical infrastructure can't cope with the additional load charging electric cars would produce.  My house, built in 1971, has been fitted with a  50 amp Company fuse. Current build houses may perhaps have a 100 amp Company fuse, I don't know of any higher.  I asked whether my fuse could be uprated to 100 amps, to be told that the wiring in the ground to my house isn't rated that high, so no. My cottage in France has a 30 amp Company fuse, and we have to be careful when boiling a kettle, as to what else is on or the fuse outside trips. Fortunately, it's a breaker rather than a physical fuse, so we can reset it ourselves.   

Nevertheless, there are few houses built in the last 100 years that could sustain the additional load of cars charging, unless the charge was, say, overnight, when there's little else drawing power.  'Filling Up' an electric car won't just the quick 5 minute job we're used to now with petrol or diesel unless a lot more infrastucture is installed, and the streets dug up to replace wiring to the house, substation transformers uprated or duplicated, none of this will be cheap or quick.

For the low mileage we now do most weeks, an electric car would suit us well, as we could easily allow an overnight charge, but we would still need something with a much greater range than, say, 200 miles, and with a quick 'refill' time for holidays, weekends away or whatever.  

Last time I was in France, I saw that the hotel we stopped at had a Tesla charging station, and people would drive in, plug in, then either hang around for half an hour or go to the hotel for a meal before carrying on their journey. It will take a change in travel habits as well as the infrastructure before electric cars take over completely from chemically driven cars.

S.

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Super Wammer
2 minutes ago, SergeAuckland said:

It's pretty obvious that today's domestic electrical infrastructure can't cope with the additional load charging electric cars would produce.  My house, built in 1971, has been fitted with a  50 amp Company fuse. Current build houses may perhaps have a 100 amp Company fuse, I don't know of any higher.  I asked whether my fuse could be uprated to 100 amps, to be told that the wiring in the ground to my house isn't rated that high, so no. My cottage in France has a 30 amp Company fuse, and we have to be careful when boiling a kettle, as to what else is on or the fuse outside trips. Fortunately, it's a breaker rather than a physical fuse, so we can reset it ourselves.   

Nevertheless, there are few houses built in the last 100 years that could sustain the additional load of cars charging, unless the charge was, say, overnight, when there's little else drawing power.  'Filling Up' an electric car won't just the quick 5 minute job we're used to now with petrol or diesel unless a lot more infrastucture is installed, and the streets dug up to replace wiring to the house, substation transformers uprated or duplicated, none of this will be cheap or quick.

For the low mileage we now do most weeks, an electric car would suit us well, as we could easily allow an overnight charge, but we would still need something with a much greater range than, say, 200 miles, and with a quick 'refill' time for holidays, weekends away or whatever.  

Last time I was in France, I saw that the hotel we stopped at had a Tesla charging station, and people would drive in, plug in, then either hang around for half an hour or go to the hotel for a meal before carrying on their journey. It will take a change in travel habits as well as the infrastructure before electric cars take over completely from chemically driven cars.

S.

I wonder if they are still going to allow hybrids. My Prius is classed as an alternate fuel car, not a petrol car (even though it is ultimately a petrol car). Hybrids are good for long distance journeys you describe. If I had the money I would go for a hybrid for long distances, and an all electric for local journeys.

I wish the article was accessible via the link, as there were quite a few more points in there. As you say, the cost of upgrading the infrastructure is huge, they were talking about possibly setting up recharge stations where the power supply could cope. They also said the average house has an 80 amp main fuse.

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Super Wammer

Good stuff here, thanks Serge and Bigfool. Surely the winning config here is the plug-in hybrid. It gives the range most of us need at least occasionally but does the plug-in thing too so is genuinely an electric car i.e. If no petrol were ever available again it would function (on all except long journeys) whereas as a Prius or similar would be for the scrapyard. My neighbour is delighted with his very normal-looking plug-in hybrid BMW 330e; he couldn't give a shit about the planet (nice for a headteacher) but loves the economy and the usual BMW looks, performance and handling. Way to go.

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Super Wammer

I remember another thing they talked about, which was restricting the times at which one could charge the car (i.e. not peak times) which would signal the end of travel-at-will as we know it.

BTW, the article was based on a think piece from (I think) the National Grid, and aren't proposals as such, but food for thought.

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1 hour ago, bigfool1956 said:

Last time I was in France, I saw that the hotel we stopped at had a Tesla charging station, and people would drive in, plug in, then either hang around for half an hour or go to the hotel for a meal before carrying on their journey. It will take a change in travel habits as well as the infrastructure before electric cars take over completely from chemically driven cars.

This is an excellent point. What will happen when there are a lot more electric cars? What happens when there is a line to use the chargers?  Getting a recharge could take hours and hours with the need for addition parking while waiting.

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Super Wammer

That's weird, that wasn't my quote, it was Serge's :o 

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9 minutes ago, bigfool1956 said:

I remember another thing they talked about, which was restricting the times at which one could charge the car (i.e. not peak times) which would signal the end of travel-at-will as we know it.

BTW, the article was based on a think piece from (I think) the National Grid, and aren't proposals as such, but food for thought.

They will be most affected by growth in  electric vehicles, so it's a Good Thing that they're raising the issues now.  

I agree that some form of petrol/electric hybrid is probably the most practical solution in the medium term.  

S.

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Super Wammer

And I expect that most charging will take place overnight at home when for decades the major electricity providers have encouraged us to use spare capacity through Economy 7 tariffs. I'm not ignoring the extra demand or the need for many of us to top up on longer journeys, but if you look at the average citizen across the average year I think you'll find that this would be the pattern for the vast majority. Which maybe means we will leave the (more expensive, obviously) petrol to those whose jobs or lifestyle choices mean overnight charging just isn't going to fit the bill.

Government can't enforce this of course but it has always used policy, taxation, subsidies, etc to encourage certain behaviours. Inducements to use electric vehicles are flushing out these questions and slowly (too slowly perhaps) ensuring that the infrastructure we will need is understood and eventually provided - by a mix of public and private sector perhaps. It's not exactly a comprehensive energy policy but at least it is based on a degree of testing and evidence gathering not just some theoretically nice shiny White Paper which appears from nowhere and is completely unworkable.

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