TheFlash

I have a lot of sympathy for your disillusionment and disdain, Mike. I'm sure governing a country can't be easy, as Trump is finding out over the pond, but the presumptuous and divisive referendum itself, the complete incompetence seen since then, the equally presumptuous, unnecessary and majority-weakening general election and our complete inability to negotiate even within our own cabinet never mind with the EU... all undermine rather than strengthen our hard-won democracy. "Take back control"? "Defend our sovereignty?" What, so this lot can shape our lives and fortunes unhindered? Yeah, right. I wouldn't personally, though, go so far as to vote Leave to make a political or democratic point, as the damage to the prospects of (at least) a generation is not a price I think they should have to pay. See you soon. Nigel

I just wanted to quote you out of sheer childish naughtiness!

Did you mean you’d “vote leave again”? Or was that a typo? [emoji848]

Have you thought of just using something from Bose, Amazon or Sonos? Or are you one of those hifi obsessives? It’s all about the music for me, not the technology. [emoji6]

Excellent post, MrLem. I’m ignoring the Russian misinformation piece as (a) I’m not sure any of us can 100% differentiate between propaganda and propaganda-about-propaganda and (b) I don’t mind whether my misinformation is Russian or Made In Britain With Pride. But I’m with you on the rest. Nice one.

Spice

Well I have huge respect for you two guys but bugger that. GF: the trouble with "it's happening" is that (a) the electorate didn't know what "it" they were voting for and (b) no-on eappears to know what "it" looks like even two years on. The debate right now is what "it" looks like. Lifting the boot implies we are in an all-or-nothing fuck-it situation. We're not, so it's a poor metaphor. This is a negotiation, not a brutal either/or all-or-nothing scenario. Rabski: wrong. It doesn't have to be completely OUT or completely IN. That's why we have this painful process playing out in the Tory party, in Government, in parliament and with the EU. What we need is a compromise, a deal. See above nose/face/spite reference. Shit, if we want total IN we should join the Euro. If you work, have ever worked, in a commercial environment you will know that few take-it-or-leave-it all-or-nothing businesses survive in the medium to long term. There's always a deal. God, this is getting bad, I'm sounding like Trump.

This is what you Leavers do, isn't it. It's convenient to focus on absolute £/€ because it gives the false impression that the rest-of-EU needs us more than we need them. Yes, in real money they do, but as a percentage they don't. Why would the EU compromise what it sees as its fundamental principles - free movement of goods, services, people - by setting a precedent which potentially invites other countries to seek their own exit on similar terms? I'm not an EU fanboy. I do agree with your point about how other EU countries "interpret" and apply EU legislation, er, "flexibly". Is that a reason to cut off our nose to spite our face? Not in my book. My dream outcome of all this is that the EU has a wake-up call, sees other nationalist movements (eg. Hungary and possibly Germany and Netherlands) in the ascendency, wakes up and smells the coffee and realises it needs a fundamental review if it is not to disintegrate. If it does that, the whole Brexit thing will have been valuable. I'm pleased you are able to identify as a European. I'll take you out of that box I put you in!

What the hell does that second paragraph have to do with your actual reality? It will cost us, it has to.

Might be handy to have these facts to hand: - The EU, taken as a whole is the UK’s largest trading partner. In 2017, UK exports to the EU were £274 billion (45% of all UK exports). UK imports from the EU were £341 billion (55% of all UK imports). - Goods exports of the EU, not including the UK, to the rest of the world, including the UK, are about 1,800 billion euro; to the UK, about 295 billion euro, or a little under 16 percent. So the EU is a far more important market to the UK than the UK is to Europe.

Re 50%: if we had only two parties, the winner always would always get more than 50%. We don’t. So it’s a crap comparison. Re general election acceptance: as I said before, we can reverse that at the next general election if we’re not happy, it’s what keeps democracy ticking over and stops us becoming a one party state. We can’t reverse the EU referendum result in 5 years and pop back in, then decide we don’t like it and pop out again, etc etc. I’m just pleased we didn’t have a referendum when the government decided on our behalf to go decimal; we all know how that would have ended, and we’d still be struggling with pounds, shillings and pence, stones, pounds and ounces. Contrary to current opinion, asking the people is not always a sign of a thriving democracy, it’s often a sign of weak government. It certainly was this time.

Doyouthinkhesawus?

striation

Morris

We live in a representative democracy where we elect a Government to govern in our best interests. The government of the day judged that remaining in the EU was in our best interests. What do you want them to do, not only abdicate responsibility by holding a referendum in the first place but further abdicate responsibility by not expressing a view?